CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

[Inkfingers]

Hi LS. Thanks for your post. Actually, I did respond to your comments. Disagreement does not equate to a lack of response.

Would you mind elaborating on the logical fallacy of suggesting the Mark could be a microchip implant? Check out the similarities. The prophecy lists three main pieces of information about the Mark:

Purpose: Buying/selling
Users: Rich/poor, Great/small, free/slave (i.e. everyone)
location: Right hand.
(Revelation 13:16-17)

That fits microchip implants perfectly. The coincidence is too great to ignore or explain away with highly spiritualized concepts which are pretty obvious about ignoring the issue of our relationship to materialism.

What if they offered to put the chip in your left hand instead? If that happened it would blow this "chip=mark" idea completely out of the water.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I mean the state of their heart is to choose/depend on the world, the guy they will know perfectly well is the beast. It tells god exactly what the state of their heart is...the state that you yourself say is what he is after.

Everyone already depends on their economy as a means of buying and selling to acquire supplies for survival. Taking a chip wouldn't change this any more than changing from furs to paper currency changed this. This does not indicate the state of a person's heart toward God and man, it indicates they need to survive, and care for their families, in a working economy. Jesus did not denounce governments or economies, He stated the opposite. Luke 3:14

You're trying to make this into a state of heart matter by claiming that everyone who would take a microchip in order to survive does so with full knowledge that they are factually betraying God, and choosing a "beast man" over God; but this is nonsense. This means that these people will all be willingly choosing damnation and I'm confident no one willing chooses damnation.

The only scenario that could actually occur is a microchip being required to buy and sell, you and others claiming it is the 'mark of the beast' causing people to wonder if you are right or wrong, without actual knowledge. The ones taking the chip would clearly be of the group that doesn't believe you're correct, and why should they? God isn't providing clear answers in your scenario.

What interpretation does such clear scripture need? It can't be any clearer, and one can only not see it if they choose not to.

It's so clear that there are hundreds of interpretations. And if you are honest, you would confess that you aren't certain that your interpretation is correct. But the fact is that your interpretation is based on a conclusion that is not in the bible, but is a product of your own need to "guess" at what the scripture means, and, hope your guess is the right guess. I know what good teaching is, and I know that God - the greatest of Teachers - would never teach in such a way. Our answers must always come from the bible, and not from our own imaginations.

A few things in the bible are not so clear, this is far from one of them. What part of mark/forehead/right hand is confusing to you?

So is a chip in the left hand acceptable? A chip in the shoulder area? Jesus said, "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood"; do we literally do this? This is a very clear set of words, is it not? But I presume though the words are themselves clearly understood, the understanding of the words is not literal.

In the bible, there tefellin are on the right hand and forehead, which contain the Word of God in them. This is a clear correlation to the mark of the beast, and is no doubt what is being alluded to by John. It is our understanding of the Word of God, and our actions through that understanding that are the sign of the state of our mind toward the Word of God. A man either understands the Word of God literally, and wordly, or he understands them, spiritually. The first is the mind of the beast (without spiritual understanding) and the latter the mind of the Christ.

So what if you are wrong, and people are listening to you, and because of you, take the mark and get everything the Bible claims they will for doing so? Do you not realize the seriousness in this?

I do indeed realize the seriousness of all of this. I mean no offence to you at all, and hope you understand this, but I'm confident that your understanding is, worldly, and erroneous. For many basic and simple reasons that you're not yet taking into account. For instance, the fact that your teaching contains the unstated teaching that God is an incompetant teacher who doesn't properly define His terms to give us sure understanding, but leaves us in the dark to "pin-the-guess-on-the-understanding" and hope we have guessed correctly. We must look inside the bible for understanding, not outside the bible. You are reading the words, then looking outside of the bible and trying to discern what is being said. But this is not how a competent teacher would work. He would either give us sure means to understand, or would not bother recording the words at all.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What if they offered to put the chip in your left hand instead? If that happened it would blow this "chip=mark" idea completely out of the water.

Not at all.
Who do they trust.
Is there idolatry. (most people on earth serve idols, and demons, according to Ephesians, Galatians and Revelation, and Y'SHUA).

To stretch a bit - is the Hebrew translated correctly ? (most certainly it is, but what if?)
Or more frequently - is it translated correctly, then defiled by man's tradition or perverted way of thinking ?

If someone serves demons, will they refuse the mark ? (perhaps? who knows?)

If someone is not saved, will they refuse the mark ? (perhaps? who knows? )

Most people on earth and in the usa are already accepting the power behind the mark, so what will happen to them TODAY if they die before the mark is even revealed ? (they are already condemned , even without the mark)

 

[razzelflabben]

Perhaps it is off topic, except that anyone who receives the mark is condemned.

All that other , I'm not going to change your mind so I won't even try.
That's up to YHWH'S MERCY in Y'SHUA.

what makes you think you can't change my mind? If your version is scripture, I will change my mind, but notice what you even say here...."anyone who receives the mark is condemned..." now, ask yourself, is a new born baby able to accept or refuse the mark? they can't even choose to receive it or reject it, how about someone in a comma? Where is the personal responsibility in your version? And before you answer, remember I said that my opinion based on scripture is that we have a personal responsibility when it comes to Christ, meaning that I tend to think that the mark will be something that can be removed if one chooses to follow Christ. Not a hard fast belief, but a tendency based on scripture. So by all means show me scripture that says that we are not personally responsible for choosing to follow or not follow Christ and where that choice is removed when it comes to the mark of the beast and I will gladly change my mind.

 

[razzelflabben]

Everyone already depends on their economy as a means of buying and selling to acquire supplies for survival. Taking a chip wouldn't change this any more than changing from furs to paper currency changed this. This does not indicate the state of a person's heart toward God and man, it indicates they need to survive, and care for their families, in a working economy. Jesus did not denounce governments or economies, He stated the opposite. Luke 3:14

You're trying to make this into a state of heart matter by claiming that everyone who would take a microchip in order to survive does so with full knowledge that they are factually betraying God, and choosing a "beast man" over God; but this is nonsense. This means that these people will all be willingly choosing damnation and I'm confident no one willing chooses damnation.

The only scenario that could actually occur is a microchip being required to buy and sell, you and others claiming it is the 'mark of the beast' causing people to wonder if you are right or wrong, without actual knowledge. The ones taking the chip would clearly be of the group that doesn't believe you're correct, and why should they? God isn't providing clear answers in your scenario.



It's so clear that there are hundreds of interpretations. And if you are honest, you would confess that you aren't certain that your interpretation is correct. But the fact is that your interpretation is based on a conclusion that is not in the bible, but is a product of your own need to "guess" at what the scripture means, and, hope your guess is the right guess. I know what good teaching is, and I know that God - the greatest of Teachers - would never teach in such a way. Our answers must always come from the bible, and not from our own imaginations.



So is a chip in the left hand acceptable? A chip in the shoulder area? Jesus said, "You must eat My flesh and drink My blood"; do we literally do this? This is a very clear set of words, is it not? But I presume though the words are themselves clearly understood, the understanding of the words is not literal.

In the bible, there tefellin are on the right hand and forehead, which contain the Word of God in them. This is a clear correlation to the mark of the beast, and is no doubt what is being alluded to by John. It is our understanding of the Word of God, and our actions through that understanding that are the sign of the state of our mind toward the Word of God. A man either understands the Word of God literally, and wordly, or he understands them, spiritually. The first is the mind of the beast (without spiritual understanding) and the latter the mind of the Christ.



I do indeed realize the seriousness of all of this. I mean no offence to you at all, and hope you understand this, but I'm confident that your understanding is, worldly, and erroneous. For many basic and simple reasons that you're not yet taking into account. For instance, the fact that your teaching contains the unstated teaching that God is an incompetant teacher who doesn't properly define His terms to give us sure understanding, but leaves us in the dark to "pin-the-guess-on-the-understanding" and hope we have guessed correctly. We must look inside the bible for understanding, not outside the bible. You are reading the words, then looking outside of the bible and trying to discern what is being said. But this is not how a competent teacher would work. He would either give us sure means to understand, or would not bother recording the words at all.

people choose damnation every day over following Christ. Not sure that is your best argument here.

 

[Inkfingers]

Not at all.
Who do they trust.
Is there idolatry. (most people on earth serve idols, and demons, according to Ephesians, Galatians and Revelation, and Y'SHUA).

To stretch a bit - is the Hebrew translated correctly ? (most certainly it is, but what if?)
Or more frequently - is it translated correctly, then defiled by man's tradition or perverted way of thinking ?

If someone serves demons, will they refuse the mark ? (perhaps? who knows?)

If someone is not saved, will they refuse the mark ? (perhaps? who knows? )

Most people on earth and in the usa are already accepting the power behind the mark, so what will happen to them TODAY if they die before the mark is even revealed ? (they are already condemned , even without the mark)

What makes a chip idolatry that could not be applied to spectacles?

If the chip can be taken in the left hand it cannot be the mark by this standard being put forward by ES - as he's making a point of it going in your right hand.

 

[Hank77]

For the record, there is also something that went on the hand and forehead in the OT; it was the Word of God held in the tefellin.

If I have understood you correctly, I basically agree with everything you have said so far, except this one and it's just a little matter almost not worth mentioning.
Any time God gave something to man to build, such as the tabernacle or later the temple, and even the tzitzit, He told them how He wanted it built. When He told the priests to bind His law to their foreheads and hand (arm) He did not tell them to build anything, not even little boxes. So to me that wasn't what He was saying. He was telling them to bind His law to their minds and their hearts so that they would remember to obey and do the works of God.

As far as the mark goes it is a seal, just like in the story of the prodigal son and the signet ring, which is a seal, that his father gave him.
Everyone makes a choice in their life whether they will carry the seal of the Father in heaven by being sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. There is only one other option. Jesus said, that those who did not accept Him are the children of the devil, victims of the beast and their own flesh. So basically idolatry.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

what makes you think you can't change my mind?

The first reason is the rules TOS etc on the internet.
The second is that if I can change your mind, then you might change it again later.
The third is that YHWH alone can lift the veil, provide understanding, enlighten us if we are willing.
The fourth is that someone else likewise would not change their mind after being told the truth, so I obeyed Y'SHUA and just went on about my own business not worrying about this at all - I forgot all about this; just as I will here.
About six months later he contacted me and said he now knew it was true, but strongly emphasized he now knew it was true because YHWH had shown him this in SCRIPTURE,
and not (emphatically not) because of what I said/ that I had told him. Like a BEREAN, he learned from YHWH'S revelation from heaven of what YHWH SAYS IN SCRIPTURE.
The fifth, sixth and seventh reasons are reserved for later if YHWH permits.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What makes a chip idolatry that could not be applied to spectacles?

Just because thirty specific idols are clearly identified in YHWH'S WORD does not mean 4 million other idols are all specifically mentioned.

 

[John Hyperspace]

okay, the quickest way to make me testy on these boards is to inflate what people say into something they didn't say and there try to make your case.

As the poster in question repeatedly told you, the issue isn't a paycheck or credit card, or mark, the issue is whom you bow down to. Put it another way, it is who you are selling yourself to in order to get food and shelter, etc. Honestly, if you are selling yourself spiritually to your boss at work, you are sinning, period. That is the issue on the table. Anyone or anytime we put anything that is anything above God we are sinning and that is the problem here with the mark of the beast as it is being presented to you.

Now, that being said, it would be nice if you would respond accordingly.

I'll meet you half-way on this. If we actually see a man standing before the people of the earth and saying, "I am the antichrist, the beast, the man of sin! It is I, O people of the earth! Behold my 666 on my forehead, yes, it is I, Ye Olde Antichrist! Now, take my computer chip in your right hand and forhead! Bow before me, that condemned one! Take my chip in your forehead and hand, and be able to buy and sell and get food, before we are all sent to damnation for all of time."

Then, yes, I advise people not take this chip. And that scenario would certain show a how much trust people put into God. Which at that point, I would think since evryone is seeing 100% proof positive that the Revelation is true, their belief and corresponding trust that God is real would rocket to 11. I do not believe this advice is necessary though, because in this scenario I'm confident not a single person on the face of the earth would take the mark.

But this scenario is being created by you, imagined by you, then put forward as if it's going to happen. But, would you meet me half-way, and agree that, if the government instituted a microchip as a way of ecomony, and people were getting the micrchip under the impression that they were simply switching to a new form of currency, and were not actually thinking this was connected in any way to some "beast man" that they are selling their souls to; that this switch in currency would have no more ramification on their state of heart toward God, than switching from, paper checks to credit cards?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If the chip can be taken in the left hand it cannot be the mark by this standard being put forward by ES - as he's making a point of it going in your right hand.

Likewise, I don't follow ES, whether he's right or wrong - or anyone for that matter, not even PETER or PAUL.
TEST EVERYTHING as YHWH says.
Follow Y'SHUA to be alive.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then, yes, I advise people not take this chip.

I don't think you're catching on, but who knows?
So, yes, pray as Y'SHUA says for strength to endure
and for wisdom to survive .

i.e. we all pray that your eyes may be opened to see .
As you have posted,
it is the enemy who is promoting the chip.
Whether it is the mark or not, all who follow the enemy are doomed.

 

[razzelflabben]

The first reason is the rules TOS etc on the internet.

rules or not, I will follow anything that scripture tells us and if I have something wrong and we are talking and you point that out to me, there is no rule against me changing my mind. It's called openness to the word of God and the leading of the HS and no one can make a law against that.

The second is that if I can change your mind, then you might change it again later.

naw, only scripture and the witness of the HS can change my mind. If I am wrong, show me the scripture that says we can make decisions for other people.

The third is that YHWH alone can lift the veil, provide understanding, enlighten us if we are willing.

He does that through His word and the testimony of His people. All I'm asking is that you show me the passages I am supposedly missing so that the HS is working in me through His word and your testimony.

The fourth is that someone else likewise would not change their mind after being told the truth, so I obeyed Y'SHUA and just went on about my own business not worrying about this at all - I forgot all about this; just as I will here.

huh? That doesn't even make any sense...let me read it again...no, doesn't make any sense...you refuse to present scripture that is requested of you because someone else refuses scripture as evidence...that is just non sense.

About six months later he contacted me and said he now knew it was true, but strongly emphasized he now knew it was true because YHWH had shown him this in SCRIPTURE,
and not (emphatically not) because of what I said/ that I had told him. Like a BEREAN, he learned from YHWH'S revelation from heaven of what YHWH SAYS IN SCRIPTURE.

I'm just asking you for the scriptures you claim I missed, I'm not asking you to change my mind. I am asking you to show me where I have scripture wrong so that I can change my understanding to fit what scripture says...where do you get the idea that you can change anyone's mind? That is the very notion we are talking about here, the notion that only God can change a person, that each man is responsible for their own choices and you are arguing about that by saying that God changes hearts....I don't know, now you are just confusing yourself. I asked you for scriptures that would show that we can decide for someone else what they believe about God....cause you see, that is what you are telling me in relation to what I said.

The fifth, sixth and seventh reasons are reserved for later if YHWH permits.

You can't even give me one good reason to not provide the scriptures you claim, I'm pretty sure there can't be 5, 6, or 7 if you can't even provide one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's called openness to the word of God and the leading of the HS and no one can make a law against that.

Almost EVERY agency on earth, government, religious, civil, academic, and social,
has laws against that.
That's why Y'SHUA said if you stand up for the truth (even in a union (like electricians, plumbers, stock market, etc etc) )
they will kick you out.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You can't even give me one good reason to not provide the scriptures you claim, I'm pretty sure there can't be 5, 6, or 7 if you can't even provide one.

As I noted before all this stuff,
you won't change your mind.
I'm not going to try.
(this is not only you - just try to find anyone in the last ten years that changed their mind on anything substantial
because of some post or posters on this or any open discussion forum)

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll meet you half-way on this. If we actually see a man standing before the people of the earth and saying, "I am the antichrist, the beast, the man of sin! It is I, O people of the earth! Behold my 666 on my forehead, yes, it is I, Ye Olde Antichrist! Now, take my computer chip in your right hand and forhead! Bow before me, that condemned one! Take my chip in your forehead and hand, and be able to buy and sell and get food, before we are all sent to damnation for all of time."
Then, yes, I advise people not take this chip. And that scenario would certain show a how much trust people put into God. Which at that point, I would think since evryone is seeing 100% proof positive that the Revelation is true, their belief and corresponding trust that God is real would rocket to 11. I do not believe this advice is necessary though, because in this scenario I'm confident not a single person on the face of the earth would take the mark.

I am currently studying what scripture says about Satan or the Devil...part of a bigger study...one of the things the Devil does, is deceive. So I think that given his nature is one of lies and deception, it would be unrealistic to assume he would be controlling someone who would just confess to being the antichrist...just saying, that really sounds like a story you are telling that fits his MO.

But this scenario is being created by you, imagined by you, then put forward as if it's going to happen. But, would you meet me half-way, and agree that, if the government instituted a microchip as a way of ecomony, and people were getting the micrchip under the impression that they were simply switching to a new form of currency, and were not actually thinking this was connected in any way to some "beast man" that they are selling their souls to; that this switch in currency would have no more ramification on their state of heart toward God, than switching from, paper checks to credit cards?

no, cause it still comes down to who you are selling your soul to.

Let me tell you a story of illustration. I have several friends who took jobs where they told their boss up front that they would not work on Sun. (not saying this is good or bad, simply saying they were putting their conviction from God first) the boss agreed then later demanded they work on Sun or loss their jobs. So they lost their jobs....see, the difference isn't the legalism nor just the heart, it's about righteousness. Righteousness is the point. I don't see anyway to make selling your soul to a dictator righteous according to scripture.

 

[razzelflabben]

Almost EVERY agency on earth, government, religious, civil, academic, and social,
has laws against that.
That's why Y'SHUA said if you stand up for the truth (even in a union (like electricians, plumbers, stock market, etc etc) )
they will kick you out.

Hum...what law says I can't change my mind? Please show me that law...

 

[razzelflabben]

As I noted before all this stuff,
you won't change your mind.
I'm not going to try.
(this is not only you - just try to find anyone in the last ten years that changed their mind on anything substantial
because of some post or posters on this or any open discussion forum)

wow, I asked you to show me scriptures I am missing and you refuse because you don't think that I am willing to conform to scripture...that is just low dude and not only low but judgmental and against scripture to refuse to show someone the truth of scripture.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If I have understood you correctly, I basically agree with everything you have said so far, except this one and it's just a little matter almost not worth mentioning.
Any time God gave something to man to build, such as the tabernacle or later the temple, and even the tzitzit, He told them how He wanted it built. When He told the priests to bind His law to their foreheads and hand (arm) He did not tell them to build anything, not even little boxes. So to me that wasn't what He was saying. He was telling them to bind His law to their minds and their hearts so that they would remember to obey and do the works of God.

As far as the mark goes it is a seal, just like in the story of the prodigal son and the signet ring, which is a seal, that his father gave him.
Everyone makes a choice in their life whether they will carry the seal of the Father in heaven by being sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. There is only one other option. Jesus said, that those who did not accept Him are the children of the devil, victims of the beast and their own flesh. So basically idolatry.

I'm glad you mentioned this little matter, it has given and added insight to understanding. I had not considered the implications of the little boxes as part of a presumption of command. Interesting. Thank you for commenting.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I am currently studying what scripture says about Satan or the Devil...part of a bigger study...one of the things the Devil does, is deceive. So I think that given his nature is one of lies and deception, it would be unrealistic to assume he would be controlling someone who would just confess to being the antichrist...just saying, that really sounds like a story you are telling that fits his MO. no, cause it still comes down to who you are selling your soul to.

Let me tell you a story of illustration. I have several friends who took jobs where they told their boss up front that they would not work on Sun. (not saying this is good or bad, simply saying they were putting their conviction from God first) the boss agreed then later demanded they work on Sun or loss their jobs. So they lost their jobs....see, the difference isn't the legalism nor just the heart, it's about righteousness. Righteousness is the point. I don't see anyway to make selling your soul to a dictator righteous according to scripture.

I don't disagree with your Sunday analogue; that indeed does show a state of heart toward your belief; I don't deny that at all. But in the discussion I was having, we were talking about the "mark of the beast" as being a microchip that is taken in order to survive in an economy. So if a person is convinced this microchip is "the mark of the beast" then their taking of it, would indeed be a sign of state of heart toward God.

But this isn't the scenario in the Revelation. There, everyone who receives it is judged. That means even if someone didn't believe the chip was the mark of the beast, and received it under the impression it was simply a change from one form of currency to another, would still be judged. Which would make as much sense as judging people for receiving a paycheck.

But only people who believe reception of a computer chip displays state of heart, are the only people who would not receive it. Everyone else who received it would not be believing it was "the mark" and as such, their reception of it would be as insignificant as their reception of any other form of currency. This is why I'm saying, the reception of a computer chip as showing state of heart, makes no sense.

And, furthermore, the implications of understanding the words of God as being "needed guessed at" simply rule out this interpretation entirely. Moreover, the worldly understanding of such words in a clearly symbolic book. For instance, that opposed "seal" received by the 144,000 "in the forehead"? Is this also to be understood clearly as a microchip? A "saintly microchip"? Both the seal of God, and the mark of the beast, are in the forehead. Are those understanding the "mark of the beast" as a literal device, also understanding the "seal of God" as a literal thing? If so, what it is?