CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

razzelflabben said:
not sure why you would think it is a matter of intelligence, I didn't even suggest it was about intelligence...but okay...

I think there is a misunderstanding between us. It looked to me like you were suggesting an issue of intelligence. I didn't comment on it as a means of scoring a point against you, but rather that the intelligence thing is a pretty common argument when it comes to disagreements, which is why I felt it worth commenting on (e.g. aside from whatever intention you may have had, I saw it as a good opportunity to address what I see as a pretty common misunderstanding regarding motives vs intelligence, in general, and in particular issues relating to finances). Maybe there is some room for questioning intelligence when it comes to understanding some issues, but I think the spiritual lesson behind the Mark is pretty simple. If people aren't getting it, it's not because they can't...

In that respect, I think intelligent people like parousia70 could be straining the other way by overcompensating with a deluge of intellectualism. By making the issue more complicated than it really is, they squirm out of a confrontation with the spiritual lesson. Preterism turns the mark prophecy into a rather dull point of history rather than a spiritual concept with profound implications regarding how we interact with the monetary system.

Other people have other means of minimizing the lesson. One of the most popular today is that a loving God would not punish people for wanting to feed their families etc, so there is a context in which taking the Mark is okay, so long as it's done with good intentions (so the theory suggests).

razzelflabben said:
for most this is true, but again, why bring this into what I said? Seriously, if you want to quote me and address what I said please do, if you just want to talk to whomever will listen to you, then leave me out of it since you seem bent on not addressing anything I am saying.

I think this is another misunderstanding. I was saying these things in my response to you partly because I believed you would agree with them, and partly because, on a public forum, it's not only you who would read the post. I was feeling at a loss as to how to respond to the preterist in a new way. I've been round and round this issue with parousia70 (and many others) a few times and, while I wanted to respond, it didn't seem quite right (it felt down right depressing). I felt I was in the position the psalmist described when he suggested that it is impossible to win an argument with a fool, because if you participate it will seem as if you are encouraging the foolishness, and if you do not participate it will seem as if you don't have an answer.

So I settled for a compromise by using my response to your comments as my response to the issues in general. It was a genuine surprise to me that you felt slighted when I had thought you'd be hitting the agree button! I'm sorry for the confusion. I've genuinely appreciated your support on this issue and I'd not like to lose it.

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
In that respect, I think intelligent people like parousia70 could be straining the other way by overcompensating with a deluge of intellectualism. By making the issue more complicated than it really is, they squirm out of a confrontation with the spiritual lesson. Preterism turns the mark prophecy into a rather dull point of history rather than a spiritual concept with profound implications regarding how we interact with the monetary system.

An interesting thought, but I'm not sure how you draw such a conclusion?

Even If the MotB was already fulfilled as I contend, it still contains highly pastoral teaching for us today regarding how we interact with the monetary system. Just because something isn't prophetic for us does not mean it is no longer beneficial to us from a pastoral angle, does it?

I have learned plenty about living true to God from the Story of Noah's flood alone.... and I didn't need to build an ark and await the rain to lean it!

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

Jean-Marc said:
The mark is not a microchip at all. It is the false love of Satan that most people who profess to be Christian seem to have. It is akin to the mark of Cain.

Except the prophecy is pretty clear that the purpose of the Mark will be to regulate buying and selling (i.e. no one will "legally" be able to buy/sell without it). Certainly, there is a similarity in concept between the seal of God and the Mark of the Beast, but that similarity only exists in the first place as an attempt to Mock God (much like Satan quoting scripture to Jesus during the temptation, as though Satan actually cared about what God wanted). Satan is a pretty bitter and sooner or later, bitterness always spills over into practical action; the Mark is a result.

The 144k who are sealed are described as those who "follow the lamb anywhere he goes". These are people are intensely loyal to Jesus. Satan's Mark is the opposite. Rather than following the lamb and applying the values of Heaven where we work for one another out of love, the Mark is meant to exploit our greed and fear by teaching us to chase after money and the things money can buy.

Jesus teaches, "Man does not live by bread alone" whereas the Mark teaches that we'll starve if we don't trust in buying/selling to keep the bread flowing.

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
Even If the MotB was already fulfilled as I contend, it still contains highly pastoral teaching for us today regarding how we interact with the monetary system.

Ok, I'll bite. From the preterism perspective, what "highly pastoral teaching" do you see coming from the Mark prophecy as being relevant for us today? Can you give any practical examples to make it clear?

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
I have learned plenty about living true to God from the Story of Noah's flood alone.... and I didn't need to build an ark and await the rain to lean it!

Did you see this thread?
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-days-of-noah-and-lot.7964105/

The Noah/Lot example does overlap the topic of this thread to some degree (because buy/selling was included in the list of Problems Jesus mentioned in connection with their destruction) so if you want to be specific in how you think it relates, I'm fine for you to share it here. Otherwise, I'd be happy to hear your thoughts over on this other thread.

razzelflabben · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
Which I gave and you ignored... here it is again:

The MotB was divinely ordained to come to pass "shortly" after John was Given the vision for the time was then "at Hand":

okay, let me get this straight so that I don't laugh prematurely...your entire evidence is based on the words "shortly"? If the word shortly had been changed or not given then you would have no case....

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

The evidence has been testified to by many scholars.

CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:

William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:

* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.

let's check some of your claims....when we look up barclay we see this....
The Mark Of The Beast (Revelation 13:11-17 Continued)

Those who had given the worship to Caesar which was demanded had on them the mark of the beast on their right hand and on their forehead. This mark is another of the grim parodies which occur in this chapter; it is a parody of a sacred Jewish custom. When a Jew prayed, he wore phylacteries on his left arm and on his forehead. They were little leather boxes with little scrolls of parchment inside them on which the following passages were written--Exodus 13:1-10; Exodus 13:11-16; Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Deuteronomy 11:13-21.

The word for the mark of the beast is charagma (Greek #5480), and it could come from more than one ancient custom.

(i) Sometimes domestic slaves were branded with the mark of their owner. But usually they were branded only if they had run away or had been guilty of some grave misdemeanour. Such a mark was called a stigma (Greek #4742); we still use the word in English. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast are his property.

(ii) Sometimes soldiers branded themselves with the name of their general, if they were very devoted to him. This, to some extent, corresponds to the modern custom of tattooing upon one's person the name of someone specially dear. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast are his devoted followers.

(iii) On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma (Greek #5480), a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority.

(iv) All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property. If the mark is connected with this, it again means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

(v) When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say that he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship, which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.

which does not say that the mark has already come but that it has mirrors throughout history..which says even your evidence does NOT agree with your claim....

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

Jean-Marc said:
Please read http://www.thepathoftruth.com/the-issues-of-life/what-is-the-mark-of-the-beast.htm to truly learn what the mark is, it may surprise you.

Quite frankly, I don't think I'll be surprised at all, mostly because it seems like you're tip-toeing around the "buying/selling" aspect of the prophecy and I've seen peeeeelenty of that.

But, just in case I'm misreading the context, maybe you should post a brief summary in your own words of the most significant points of the article and if it really does sound surprising then I'll be more inclined to read it. I hope that sounds like a reasonable compromise for you.

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

razzelflabben said:
which does not say that the mark has already come but that it has mirrors throughout history.

I seriously nearly applauded. Probably the most fantastic observation I've seen on this topic in a long time.

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
Ok, I'll bite. From the preterism perspective, what "highly pastoral teaching" do you see coming from the Mark prophecy as being relevant for us today? Can you give any practical examples to make it clear?

Simple. The Beast wants to put his character in us as well. The Mark of The Beast, like all scripture, is given so that we may understand God and how to serve Him better. The Mark of The Beast teaches us that the Lord demands uncompromising obedience and unswerving dedication. The Beast represents the archetype of the tyrannical state, which is opposed to God's Word and God's Law.

In scripture, the Beast is defined as kings (Daniel 7:17, Revelation 17:10-12), and man-made kingdoms (Daniel 7:18,23, Revelation 16:10) that have power to make war and kill (Revelation 11:7; 17:14). The Beast is the government, with rulers and armies, that are against God and his servants (Revelation 19:19). Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23). So rulers that enforce laws contrary to God's Law, are the Beast.

Followers of the Beast receive his mark of ownership; submission to ungodly, anti-Christian law. The mark in Revelation is not to be taken literally. It's an allusion to the Old Testament symbol of man's total obedience to God, and stands as a warning that a society's God (whether the true God or the state) demands complete commitment in all areas of life. Christians cannot compromise (2 Cor.6:14-18). The state is not absolute, it's under authority of Christ (Psalm 2, Matthew 28:18); it's an instrument of God (Romans 13:1-7). It has no license to do whatever it likes. It's ordained purpose is for a rod of correction; to speak the Word of God, to punish evil, and to reward good (Romans 13:4, 1 Peter 2:14, Hebrews 13:7). That is its only authorized purpose.

razzelflabben · Nov 14, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
I think there is a misunderstanding between us. It looked to me like you were suggesting an issue of intelligence. I didn't comment on it as a means of scoring a point against you, but rather that the intelligence thing is a pretty common argument when it comes to disagreements, which is why I felt it worth commenting on (e.g. aside from whatever intention you may have had, I saw it as a good opportunity to address what I see as a pretty common misunderstanding regarding motives vs intelligence, in general, and in particular issues relating to finances). Maybe there is some room for questioning intelligence when it comes to understanding some issues, but I think the spiritual lesson behind the Mark is pretty simple. If people aren't getting it, it's not because they can't...

If this is your apology I accept. My comment that was used to paint me as talking about intelligence clearly showed I took responsibility for communication.

Let me tell you a story. My grandparents finished 3 and 4th grades and were some of the most intelligent people I had the privilege of knowing and my husbands family have several literal geniuses in it. Point being, intelligence isn't about how much you know it's what you do with what you have and I learned that at a very young age which is why I would never ever insult someone's intelligence as a certain post and poster tried to suggest. In fact, I find it extremely offensive.

In that respect, I think intelligent people like parousia70 could be straining the other way by overcompensating with a deluge of intellectualism. By making the issue more complicated than it really is, they squirm out of a confrontation with the spiritual lesson. Preterism turns the mark prophecy into a rather dull point of history rather than a spiritual concept with profound implications regarding how we interact with the monetary system.

not my call to make, my only responsibility is to communicate effectively and allow the rest to God.

Other people have other means of minimizing the lesson. One of the most popular today is that a loving God would not punish people for wanting to feed their families etc, so there is a context in which taking the Mark is okay, so long as it's done with good intentions (so the theory suggests).

which is easy to prove in scripture to be a flawed concept.

I think this is another misunderstanding. I was saying these things in my response to you partly because I believed you would agree with them, and partly because, on a public forum, it's not only you who would read the post. I was feeling at a loss as to how to respond to the preterist in a new way. I've been round and round this issue with parousia70 (and many others) a few times and, while I wanted to respond, it didn't seem quite right (it felt down right depressing). I felt I was in the position the psalmist described when he suggested that it is impossible to win an argument with a fool, because if you participate it will seem as if you are encouraging the foolishness, and if you do not participate it will seem as if you don't have an answer.

know that feeling all to well.

So I settled for a compromise by using my response to your comments as my response to the issues in general. It was a genuine surprise to me that you felt slighted when I had thought you'd be hitting the agree button! I'm sorry for the confusion. I've genuinely appreciated your support on this issue and I'd not like to lose it.

we are good on this end...perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say, but I am very easy to get along with so if we have it all worked out, I'm good if you are.

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

razzelflabben said:
okay, let me get this straight so that I don't laugh prematurely...your entire evidence is based on the words "shortly"? If the word shortly had been changed or not given then you would have no case....

Can we deal with what actually IS instead of "what If's"?

I mean, if you are suggesting we go down that road, then "what if" there was no mark of the beast prophesy? How then would your claims of it still being future pan out?

As far as "shortly", "at hand" and their synonyms, there are over 100 such time indicators in the New Testament. "What if they weren't there" is not a sober defense against my interpretation of them. They ARE there, and were put there by design... we don't get to simply wish they weren't and interpret the scriptures as if they did not exist.

Again,

Numbers 24:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Of what value are the time indicators in the above passage of "not now" and "not near" if the value of "now" and "near" is to be stretched into thousands of years as you seem so willing to swallow?

If "now" and "near" are to be interpreted in polar opposite fashion of their literalmeaning to mean "far" ie; thousands of years, then should "not near" and "not now" be likewise interpreted exactly opposite to mean near, soon, or even immediately?

Can we trust God to do what He says He'll do, when He says He'll do it? or isthe "when" of a prophesy irrelevant because of Gods timeless nature?

which does not say that the mark has already come but that it has mirrors throughout history..which says even your evidence does NOT agree with your claim....

Mirrors in History?

Was Noah's Flood a mirror of a future flood?

Was the Crucifixion merely a mirror of some future sacrifice of Christ?

The Virgin Birth simply a mirror of some future immaculate incarnation?

Really?

razzelflabben · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
Can we deal with what actually IS instead of "what If's"?

I mean, if you are suggesting we go down that road, then "what if" there was no mark of the beast prophesy? How then would your claims of it still being future pan out?

As far as "shortly", "at hand" and their synonyms, there are over 100 such time indicators in the New Testament. "What if they weren't there" is not a sober defense against my interpretation of them.

Again,

Numbers 24:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Of what value are the time indicators in the above passage of "not now" and "not near" if the value of "now" and "near" is to be stretched into thousands of years as you seem so willing to swallow?

If "now" and "near" are to be interpreted in polar opposite fashion of their literalmeaning to mean "far" ie; thousands of years, then should "not near" and "not now" be likewise interpreted exactly opposite to mean near, soon, or even immediately?

Can we trust God to do what He says He'll do, when He says He'll do it? or isthe "when" of a prophesy irrelevant because of Gods timeless nature?

let me answer that by asking you how scripture tells us, the believers to view this life and this world? Include scripture references please...if you can't answer let me know and I will fill you in.

Mirrors in History?

Was Noah's Flood a mirror of a future flood?

is there any suggest it is? You are the one who presented Barclay as evidence and Barclay is the one that said they were mirrors...so you beef is with Barclay and not me.

Was the Crucifixion merely a mirror of some future sacrifice of Christ?

The Virgin Birth simply a mirror of some future immaculate incarnation?

Really?

see above...I am not the one you should be aiming these questions at since your evidence was Barclay and that is what Barclay said about it you need to ask Barclay and only ask me what is significant to what I have said.

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

razzelflabben said:
only ask me what is significant to what I have said.

I did. I asked you about your statement that "what if" the time indicators of near & at hand etc, "weren't there"?

Again, you are trying to convince me that my interpretation of certain scriptures is wrong by saying "well, if those scriptures were different or didn't exist, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on..."

The problem you are faced with is that those scriptures DO exist, and you haven't yet offered your counter interpretation of them, instead you simply said "well, If they were different..."

razzelflabben · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
I did. I asked you about your statement that "what if" the time indicators of near & at hand etc, "weren't there"?

why would you ask me that when I never said nor suggested they were not there? See, what I asked you and what you quoted was me asking you to ask me questions about what I said not what you want to reinvent me saying. This is a perfect example of that.

Again, you are trying to convince me that my interpretation of certain scriptures is wrong by saying "well, if those scriptures were different or didn't exist, you wouldn't have a leg to stand on..."

I am not trying to convince you of anything, that isn't my job. My job is to communicate...period end of story. I asked you a question based on what you said and have as far as I know answered every question you asked that applied to anything I said and dismissed those that were unrelated to what I actually did say.

The problem you are faced with is that those scriptures DO exist, and you haven't yet offered your counter interpretation of them, instead you simply said "well, If they were different..."

where did I say "well, if they were different''? that doesn't sound like anything I would ever say being that that is the antithesis of what I believe about scripture. I believe with all my heart that scripture is sound and that we dare not change a single word of it. That is why I put so much study in of the word of God. Now to ask you questions about how you interpret a scripture is something I would say because I believe that God wants us to challenge our understanding of Him and in that test our conclusions to see if they are consistent with His intent. But that is a far cry from what you are accusing me of here and is quite frankly very offensive to the very core of who I am and what I believe....but then again, that would be another great reason for you to follow forum rules and just address what I am saying without trying to reinvent it first.

Now, do you know the answer to the question about what scripture tells us that the believers understanding of time should be?

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

razzelflabben said:
where did I say "well, if they were different''? that doesn't sound like anything I would ever say being that that is the antithesis of what I believe about scripture.

You said it here:

razzelflabben said:
okay, let me get this straight so that I don't laugh prematurely...your entire evidence is based on the words "shortly"? If the word shortly had been changed or not given then you would have no case....

Problem for you is that the word shortly was not changed and was indeed given, in opposite to your "what if" scenario above... As I said, there are over 100 synonymous time indicators given in the New Testament. Responding to them by saying "If they all had been changed or not given then you would have no case" is not a sober defense against my interpretation of them.

But that is a far cry from what you are accusing me of here and is quite frankly very offensive to the very core of who I am and what I believe....

I'm sorry you find me quoting your own comments offensive.

Now, do you know the answer to the question about what scripture tells us that the believers understanding of time should be?

Every time a time limit is placed on the fulfillment of prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to man, not how time relates to God.
Every one, without fail, always.

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
Mirrors in History?

Was Noah's Flood a mirror of a future flood?

LK 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
LK 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
LK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
LK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
LK 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

According to these comments from Jesus, yeah. But the technicality in your observation is the word "flood". A true, legalistic nit-pick. No, not another flood, but destruction just the same.

parousia70 · Nov 14, 2016

Endtime Survivors said:
LK 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
LK 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
LK 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
LK 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
LK 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

According to these comments from Jesus, yeah. But the technicality in your observation is the word "flood". A true, legalistic nit-pick. No, not another flood, but destruction just the same.

Type/Shadow vs Object/Fulfillment

The problem is that while the OT events and personalities were indeed types and shadows that pointed to New testament objects and realities, the Apostles did not see or teach this as continuing beyond the messianic generation. For Christ is no shadow but the object itself.

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
The problem is that while the OT events and personalities were indeed types and shadows that pointed to New testament objects and realities, the Apostles did not see or teach this as continuing beyond the messianic generation. For Christ is no shadow but the object itself.

Sounds like a lot of religious jargon. More of that overcompensating with intellectualism. It's a paragraph full of word salad, but what does it actually mean?

You say you've learned lessons from the Noah/Lot day examples in the form of being "true to God", but that truth apparently doesn't extend to dealing with materialism (supposedly because the apostles believed only the "messianic generation" would have a problem with greed and materialism).

The point was that past interactions between man and materialism are a reflection of the underlying spiritual lesson behind the mark; (which is the exploitation of man's dependence on money and the things money can buy). If people put their faith and trust in materialism in the past, then they will do so again in the future. It's a very simple lesson.

When you argue that this point is invalid because the apostles did not see this as "continuing beyond the messianic generation" three likely scenarios come to mind; you're either deliberately trying to convolute the issue with jargon, you're trying to diminish the role of greed in human behavior or you don't understand what either razzle or I are saying.

Endtime Survivors · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
Simple. The Beast wants to put his character in us as well. The Mark of The Beast, like all scripture, is given so that we may understand God and how to serve Him better. The Mark of The Beast teaches us that the Lord demands uncompromising obedience and unswerving dedication. The Beast represents the archetype of the tyrannical state, which is opposed to God's Word and God's Law.

In scripture, the Beast is defined as kings (Daniel 7:17, Revelation 17:10-12), and man-made kingdoms (Daniel 7:18,23, Revelation 16:10) that have power to make war and kill (Revelation 11:7; 17:14). The Beast is the government, with rulers and armies, that are against God and his servants (Revelation 19:19). Jesus said, "He that is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30, Luke 11:23). So rulers that enforce laws contrary to God's Law, are the Beast.

Followers of the Beast receive his mark of ownership; submission to ungodly, anti-Christian law. The mark in Revelation is not to be taken literally. It's an allusion to the Old Testament symbol of man's total obedience to God, and stands as a warning that a society's God (whether the true God or the state) demands complete commitment in all areas of life. Christians cannot compromise (2 Cor.6:14-18). The state is not absolute, it's under authority of Christ (Psalm 2, Matthew 28:18); it's an instrument of God (Romans 13:1-7). It has no license to do whatever it likes. It's ordained purpose is for a rod of correction; to speak the Word of God, to punish evil, and to reward good (Romans 13:4, 1 Peter 2:14, Hebrews 13:7). That is its only authorized purpose.

The most significant part of this post is that it's supposed to give us information about the Mark, but it doesn't say one word about what the scripture itself describes as the purpose of the Mark; buying/selling.

razzelflabben · Nov 14, 2016

parousia70 said:
You said it here:

wow, read what I said...I said that you are basing your whole argument on the word shortly....I didn't say that I didn't think the word wasn't there or should be changed...wow...

Problem for you is that the word shortly was not changed and was indeed given,

it's not a problem for me because my argument does NOT rely on the word shortly in order to hold up. Your argument does, so it's your problem.

in opposite to your "what if" scenario above... As I said, there are over 100 synonymous time indicators given in the New Testament. Responding to them by saying "If they all had been changed or not given then you would have no case" is not a sober defense against my interpretation of them.

sure it is...you are basing all your assumptions on a word that is not an exact translation...that is a weak argument at best.

I'm sorry you find me quoting your own comments offensive.

quoting isn't a problem what is a problem is taking them out of context and misrepresenting them and by now you have to know that is my problem with your posts.

Every time a time limit is placed on the fulfillment of prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to man, not how time relates to God.
Every one, without fail, always.

yep...now answer the question I asked you about that time...what does scripture tell us that the believers view of time on this earth should be? It's not a hard question and will shed light on your interpretation if you allow it to.

CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

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