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Check for Evolutionists.

BigChrisfilm

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stumpjumper said:
Right!

And the evidence points toward a very old earth, evolution, dinosaurs that did not exist while people did, and the fact that the sun being created on day four, while the earth on day one, causes a serious gravity problem ;)

Here is "evidence": A Christian Perspective on Radiometric dating

I can take your evidence for Evolution, and make it mine, for Creationism, that is what I mean when we interpret the same evidance in different ways, to comply with our presumptions.
 
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Arkanin

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BigChrisfilm said:
I can take your evidence for Evolution, and make it mine, for Creationism, that is what I mean when we interpret the same evidance in different ways, to comply with our presumptions.

Honestly, if your assumption is simply "I exist and my five senses tell me real things about the world", evolution is very likely to appear the most probable explanation. If you do not assume the above, it is functionally impossible for you to do much of anything.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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I believe that we have five senses, but I believe that we have more than 5 senses. Is it true we use only half or so of our brians? Then how can we know that anything we come up with as true is true? That is, just because we can't see something, does that mean it isn't there? Just because we can't hear something, does that mean it isn't there? See what I am getting at?
 
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stumpjumper

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BigChrisfilm said:
I can take your evidence for Evolution, and make it mine, for Creationism, that is what I mean when we interpret the same evidance in different ways, to comply with our presumptions.

Umm. No, you can't.

How do you take the actual evidence of say vestigal features (the human tailbone for instance), mitochondrial DNA, or transitional fossils (Tiktaalik comes to mind here ;) ) and make them "evidence" for unique special creation?

The only answer is that you cannot do so...

I'm a Christian and my presumptions are very limited but if you wish to convince others of the truth of the Christian religion you should delete AIG from your list of sources :p
 
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Arkanin

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BigChrisfilm said:
I believe that we have five senses, but I believe that we have more than 5 senses.

In a sense, I do too, and that is why I believe in god -- because my heart tells me it is so.

But believing in and serving god does not mean throwing the other five senses out the door, and if someone else does not have that sense, it is unfair to expect them to believe in god.
 
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Uphill Battle

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stumpjumper said:
Umm. No, you can't.

How do you take the actual evidence of say vestigal features (the human tailbone for instance), mitochondrial DNA, or transitional fossils (Tiktaalik comes to mind here ;) ) and make them "evidence" for unique special creation?

The only answer is that you cannot do so...

I'm a Christian and my presumptions are very limited but if you wish to convince others of the truth of the Christian religion you should delete AIG from your list of sources :p

the human tailbone is not vestigial. If you are so certain it is, go have it removed, and see how long your guts stay in your abdomen.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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stumpjumper said:
Umm. No, you can't.

How do you take the actual evidence of say vestigal features (the human tailbone for instance), mitochondrial DNA, or transitional fossils (Tiktaalik comes to mind here ;) ) and make them "evidence" for unique special creation?

The only answer is that you cannot do so...

I'm a Christian and my presumptions are very limited but if you wish to convince others of the truth of the Christian religion you should delete AIG from your list of sources :p

DNA is too complex for random chance, it must have been created, there is not such thing as 2 sets of evidence, if there were, then we would both be right, no, there is only one right, and one wrong, one set of evidence. So how do we take the same set of evidence, and come up with 2 sets of beliefs?
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Uphill Battle said:
the human tailbone is not vestigial. If you are so certain it is, go have it removed, and see how long your guts stay in your abdomen.


vestigial:

2. Biology. Occurring or persisting as a rudimentary or degenerate structure.​

:scratch:

 
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BigChrisfilm

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Arkanin said:
In a sense, I do too, and that is why I believe in god -- because my heart tells me it is so.

But believing in and serving god does not mean throwing the other five senses out the door, and if someone else does not have that sense, it is unfair to expect them to believe in god.

I believe that god gives everyone a chance to believe in him, it is not up to god to make us believe, that is why we can't use the other senses that we have, because they would prove god is real.
 
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CSmrw

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BigChrisfilm said:
"A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’"

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp
And?
 
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Uphill Battle

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Lord Emsworth said:


2. Biology. Occurring or persisting as a rudimentary or degenerate structure.
:scratch:

you know full well that when an Evo talks about a vestigial appendage/organ, they are talking about one that is no longer needed, it is essentially a "left over."
 
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Lord Emsworth

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Uphill Battle said:
you know full well that when an Evo talks about a vestigial appendage/organ, they are talking about one that is no longer needed, it is essentially a "left over."



Amend that to:

... they are talking about one that is no longer needed in its primary function ...

And you are correct.

 
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JediMobius

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yashua said:
The fear of Hell, is the basis for Christianity

Hahaha, as a Christian, I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. It is my experience that fear of God is the basis for Christianity (more or less).

Anywho. . .

As for the argument that believing in natural selection is believing in evolution, there seems to be a bit of flawed logic there. Natural selection is [basically] adaptation, genetic learning if you will. There's a big difference between the vast random changes required for the accidental life theory of evolution and the fact that change happens over time whatever the speed.

When I look at things like emotion, art, ancient civilizations, the perfect distance of the earth from the sun which allows the right conditions for life, there's simply too much success with random change and events.

I found it pretentious when scientists found the most recent 'missing link' fossil that 'shows' the transition from sea to land animals. The fossil shows structure both for living on land and in water, somehow that must equate to evolution when adaptation to its environment is all that can be established as fact. How can anyone, scientist or not, say that the animal wasn't wiped out by the flash flood that buried the fossil, or that it became the alligator of today without somehow branching off to become other species?

Evolutionism largely starts with the theory and forces 'evidence' into its slots, a rather biased system to be called science. There is no proof for evolution, just conjecture based on a few pieces of the puzzle.
 
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BigChrisfilm

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TheLowlyTortoise said:
Hahaha, as a Christian, I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. It is my experience that fear of God is the basis for Christianity (more or less).

Anywho. . .

As for the argument that believing in natural selection is believing in evolution, there seems to be a bit of flawed logic there. Natural selection is [basically] adaptation, genetic learning if you will. There's a big difference between the vast random changes required for the accidental life theory of evolution and the fact that change happens over time whatever the speed.

When I look at things like emotion, art, ancient civilizations, the perfect distance of the earth from the sun which allows the right conditions for life, there's simply too much success with random change and events.

I found it pretentious when scientists found the most recent 'missing link' fossil that 'shows' the transition from sea to land animals. The fossil shows structure both for living on land and in water, somehow that must equate to evolution when adaptation to its environment is all that can be established as fact. How can anyone, scientist or not, say that the animal wasn't wiped out by the flash flood that buried the fossil, or that it became the alligator of today without somehow branching off to become other species?

Evolutionism largely starts with the theory and forces 'evidence' into its slots, a rather biased system to be called science. There is no proof for evolution, just conjecture based on a few pieces of the puzzle.

O man, I told you guys to just ignore him, now I can only pray he doesn't come back, oh man you guys are going to lose your minds when he comes back, lol.
 
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stumpjumper

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BigChrisfilm said:
So how do we take the same set of evidence, and come up with 2 sets of beliefs?

Because if you deny evolution then you are not following the evidence as to where it leads...

The only group of people that seriously doubts, or objects to, the ToE are Christian Creationists (big C).

Why do you think that is?

The book of Genesis is not evidence about our biological origin.
 
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stumpjumper

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Uphill Battle said:
you know full well that when an Evo talks about a vestigial appendage/organ, they are talking about one that is no longer needed, it is essentially a "left over."

The technical name is a coccyx and it is vestigial because it is no longer used to support a tail.

It is still rather important though but, hey, that's the beauty of evolution :p
 
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Uphill Battle

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stumpjumper said:
The technical name is a coccyx and it is vestigial because it is no longer used to support a tail.

It is still rather important though but, hey, that's the beauty of evolution :p

This is of course, assuming that it ever supported a tail. And there is no evidence that it ever did. May I ask if tailbones in other creatures support the abdominal contents in the same manner? none, to my knowledge. So, somehow the primary function switched. Not that it isn't performing a primary function any longer, but that it has it's own new primary function, which would be a near impossibility, would it not?

Think of the transitionals. How would a creature survive the transition between a creature that required the "inner" tailbone to support its guts, and an outer one, to support the tail? It doesn't make much straight forward sense.
 
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