Cheap Grace

[listed]

I answered you first with a scripture you apparently didn't understand the relevance of, if you still don't how else to continue?

I'll break it down for you. You are using a human example to explain G-ds grace yet when it's shown to have existed before you say it isn't the same. You are imposing your understanding to explain the favor of G-d which has been an ongoing things since the garden.

You simply refuse to believe John 1:17. Grace and truth are not the law. They are opposed to each other. Grace grants exception to the law issued at Mt Sinai.

 

[Meowzltov]

Grace grants exception to the law issued at Mt Sinai.

The law is not the only thing in the OT. People were forgiven as well. Christ's atonement was prefigured by sacrifices, his grace was shed backwards in time as well as forwards in time.

 

[Frogster]

The law is not the only thing in the OT. People were forgiven as well. Christ's atonement was prefigured by sacrifices, his grace was shed backwards in time as well as forwards in time.

But they did not have sin remission, and rom 3:25, did not happen until the NT times, so the going backwards did not happen until the cross. See Rom 5.

 

[Lulav]

You simply refuse to believe John 1:17. Grace and truth are not the law. They are opposed to each other. Grace grants exception to the law issued at Mt Sinai.

You have no position to state what I believe and what I don't believe.

Conclusions to be made from your statement above are thus.

• Grace and Truth are separate from the Law
• Grace and Truth are in opposition to each other
• Grace allows you to not have to keep G-ds commandments
• You have a free ticket to do as you please and still please G-d

How about this, why didn't these people know that the law was done away with?

John, who was the beloved disciple, one of the chief apostles, why didn't he know this and teach it?

By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d and observe His commandments. http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-3.htm
For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome. 1Jn5:2-3


At the time of the Beast and the mark there will be these people living, why didn't they get that free pass to not have to follow the law, but yet seem to be rewarded?

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus.

if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.~~Jesus of Nazereth c 32 ce

 

[BobRyan]

I know we do not save them, but if they were not saved "apart from us" the saved ones, then that means that they were not saved until the "us" were.

Which I think we both agree would be a neat quote to have in the Bible - but it does not say 'they were not saved until us".

They waited for that new heavenly city - and so do we according to Rev 21 and 1Peter 1:13

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:13. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

It is talking about salvation, because the perfect word is about sin remission, let me know if you want proof. See 7:11, it is about perfection.

Then even Noah was saved as I pointed out earlier.
he Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world".

It says Noah was perfect

It says we also fix our hope on that FUTURE event of the 2nd coming 1Peter 1:13

T

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

Heb 11 says that they did not receive that heavenly land - and indeed neither have you or I gone to heaven - to this very day.

Abraham - Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

So also do we "wait for" it. The 2nd coming has not happened yet.

In Heb 8:1-6 we find the heavenly temple - that God made.

In Heb 11 we find the heavenly city - that God made.

 

[Frogster]

Which I think we both agree would be a neat quote to have in the Bible - but it does not say 'they were not saved until us".

They waited for that new heavenly city - and so do we according to Rev 21 and 1Peter 1:13

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:13. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.



Then even Noah was saved as I pointed out earlier.
he Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world".

It says Noah was perfect

It says we also fix our hope on that FUTURE event of the 2nd coming 1Peter 1:13

yes, the future too with peter, but they were saved, they were born again, they were already obtaining.t says it.

 

[Meowzltov]

But they did not have sin remission, and rom 3:25, did not happen until the NT times, so the going backwards did not happen until the cross. See Rom 5.

Once more, froggie baby, we disagree.

 

[Frogster]

Once more, froggie baby, we disagree.

Sin remission only came by the shed blood of Christ. you disagree with that?

 

[Meowzltov]

Sin remission only came by the shed blood of Christ. you disagree with that?

I don't disagree. What I said, however, was that it worked backwards in time.

 

[Lulav]

I don't disagree. What I said, however, was that it worked backwards in time.

How does that work? I was just contemplating something along those lines.

If salvation goes to those who kept G-ds commandments looking forward to a salvation to come, what of the heathens?

 

[Meowzltov]

How does that work? I was just contemplating something along those lines.

If salvation goes to those who kept G-ds commandments looking forward to a salvation to come, what of the heathens?

I have a mental image of a time line, and a cross come down and is planted into it. Where it strikes the ground, the blood of Christ pours out onto the timeline in both directions, making God's grace available to all.

As far as heathens go, God is the perfect Judge. They can be saved by living righteously by the universal laws just as Ninevah was.

 

[Lulav]

I have a mental image of a time line, and a cross come down and is planted into it. Where it strikes the ground, the blood of Christ pours out onto the timeline in both directions, making God's grace available to all.

As far as heathens go, God is the perfect Judge. They can be saved by living righteously by the universal laws just as Ninevah was.

But was a prophet back then sent to all the different nations, like Jonah was?

 

[Meowzltov]

But was a prophet back then sent to all the different nations, like Jonah was?

Not always. I'm not sure why that would be important.

 

[Steeno7]

The law is not the only thing in the OT. People were forgiven as well. Christ's atonement was prefigured by sacrifices, his grace was shed backwards in time as well as forwards in time.

No, it wasn't. The grace of the new covenant was a promise that the Israelites did not receive (Heb. 11:13) nor participate in. And God's grace in Jesus Christ cannot legitimately be retroactively read back into the OT narrative, as it was realized, came to pass, happened historically "in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17).

When you retroactively transfer Christian concepts of the new covenant back into the old you are engaging in historical revisionism. You are projecting Christian realities back onto Hebrew believers, ascribing attributes to them that are only available to Christians in Christ. It is a reverse projection of Christian realities that is not valid nor honest.

 

[listed]

The law is not the only thing in the OT. People were forgiven as well. Christ's atonement was prefigured by sacrifices, his grace was shed backwards in time as well as forwards in time.

Forgiven and remission are 2 entirely different animals. There is no redemption from sin by forgiveness of sin.

 

[listed]

You have no position to state what I believe and what I don't believe.

Conclusions to be made from your statement above are thus.

• Grace and Truth are separate from the Law
• Grace and Truth are in opposition to each other
• Grace allows you to not have to keep G-ds commandments
• You have a free ticket to do as you please and still please G-d

How about this, why didn't these people know that the law was done away with?

John, who was the beloved disciple, one of the chief apostles, why didn't he know this and teach it?

By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d and observe His commandments.
For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome. 1Jn5:2-3


At the time of the Beast and the mark there will be these people living, why didn't they get that free pass to not have to follow the law, but yet seem to be rewarded?

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus.

if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.~~Jesus of Nazereth c 32 ce

It is obvious from what you post what you believe.

Truth and grace or as I said Grace and truth is a single item by compound with the word and. You misread the sentence. I plainly said Grace and truth are not the law and are opposed to it. John 1:17 reads that way.

You have the pronouns of 1 John 5:2-3 mixed up.

Yes I am very familiar with your Revelation text, the SDA use it all the time. You do not understand what commandments John is talking about.

Kool, use an out of context passage also recognized to oppose John 10 making Jesus a liar.

 

[listed]

Which I think we both agree would be a neat quote to have in the Bible - but it does not say 'they were not saved until us".

They waited for that new heavenly city - and so do we according to Rev 21 and 1Peter 1:13

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:13. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.



Then even Noah was saved as I pointed out earlier.
he Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world".

It says Noah was perfect

It says we also fix our hope on that FUTURE event of the 2nd coming 1Peter 1:13

Yes and God knew me by name before the foundation of the world.

 

[listed]

I have a mental image of a time line, and a cross come down and is planted into it. Where it strikes the ground, the blood of Christ pours out onto the timeline in both directions, making God's grace available to all.

As far as heathens go, God is the perfect Judge. They can be saved by living righteously by the universal laws just as Ninevah was.

Not supportable by the Scripture.

 

[Meowzltov]

But was a prophet back then sent to all the different nations, like Jonah was?

Of course not.

 

[Meowzltov]

Forgiven and remission are 2 entirely different animals. There is no redemption from sin by forgiveness of sin.

They sure look the same according to the dictionary of the english language:

re·mis·sion
rəˈmiSH(ə)n/
noun

1. the cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.
   "the plan allows for the partial remission of tuition fees"
   synonyms: cancellation, setting aside, suspension, revocation;
   formalabrogation
   "the remission of all fees"
   • a diminution of the seriousness or intensity of disease or pain; a temporary recovery.
     "ten out of twenty patients remained in remission"
     synonyms: respite, abeyance
     "the cancer is in remission"
   • formal
     forgiveness of sins.
     synonyms: forgiveness, pardoning, absolution, exoneration;
     formalexculpation
     "the remission of sins

for·give
fərˈɡiv/
verb
past participle: forgiven

1. stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.
   "I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her"
   synonyms: pardon, excuse, exonerate, absolve; More
   • stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
     "they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven"
   • cancel (a debt).
     "he proposed that their debts should be forgiven"