Cheap Grace

[Meowzltov]

“And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” Romans 11:6

That doesn't mean we aren't to cooperate with grace.

 

[Meowzltov]

It is Christ who paid the cost

It's absolutely Christ who paid the cost. He saves us. But we cooperate in that salvation, beginning with repentance, nicht wahr?

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's absolutely Christ who paid the cost. He saves us. But we cooperate in that salvation, beginning with repentance, nicht wahr?

I am not concerned about cooperating in this context. Grace is freely given; it is an act of God's will by which he gives gifts to those who have not earned them and do not deserve them by anything they have done though what they do plays a role in their ability to recognise and receive the gifts that God gives. Of course everything a creature does and is is a gift from God already so even the ability and will to cooperate are gifts from God as is the very being of the creature. See Acts 17.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am not concerned about cooperating in this context

Then how are we supposed to have a conversation?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am not concerned about cooperating in this context. Grace is freely given; it is an act of God's will by which he gives gifts to those who have not earned them and do not deserve them by anything they have done though what they do plays a role in their ability to recognise and receive the gifts that God gives. Of course everything a creature does and is is a gift from God already so even the ability and will to cooperate are gifts from God as is the very being of the creature. See Acts 17.

Then how are we supposed to have a conversation?

Please let my post speak in its own context. The cooperation mentioned in the first sentence is cooperation between the faithful and God in the application of grace and the use of gifts.

 

[Lulav]

Sorry, but no, New covenant "grace" did not exist in the context of the old covenant. The Hebrew language did not have a word for what we know as the new covenant concept of "grace." Why have a word for that which does not exist in your experience? No one would know what it meant. John explains that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ.

The Hebrew word hen in the OT referred primarily to an attribute of God, whereas the Greek word charis in the NT is used to refer to the new and unique activity of God in Jesus Christ.

Actually, chen means 'favor' it is the favor of G-d given without us earning it.

Sadly the NT word we have is written in Greek which had no equivalent, instead they used a word that is attached to mythology.

The Greek word translated to 'grace' is charish

Charis (/ˈkeɪrɪs/; Greek: Χάρις) is a given name derived from a Greek word meaning "grace, kindness".

In Greek mythology, a Charis is one of the Charites (Greek: Χάριτες) or "Graces", goddesses of charm, beauty, nature, human creativity and fertility; and in Homer's Iliad, Charis is the wife of Hephaestus.[1] Charis was also known as Cale ("Beauty") or Aglaea ("Splendor").[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charis_(name)#cite_note-theoi.com-2

However it is to mean the same thing as in Hebrew, thus the examples I gave are correct.

Greek 5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term
Hebrew 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

This may help you to understand. The same word translated as 'grace' in the epistles is also used Luke regarding Mary who did nothing to earn this.

"And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored (root-charis) woman! The Lord is with you."

 

[Lulav]

I quoted rom 5, and I am right, grace did not come until the gospel, new cov times. Again, would you like to debate the text, or just ask me questions?

I guess that means you can't answer my question. What then is the purpose of discussing this if you can't answer to what the subject at hand means to your mind?

 

[Lulav]

Ok, I don't need drama...., that scene is over!

Then don't create it. And don't ignore what you said and my reproof. Repentance is required.

 

[Meowzltov]

"And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored (root-charis) woman! The Lord is with you."

It is that very rootword of charis that has many translators saying it "Full of grace."

 

[Frogster]

Besides your first question I have no idea what you are saying.

For the law was given through Moses, but God's unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ.

These are not in opposition.

The glory of

I guess that means you can't answer my question. What then is the purpose of discussing this if you can't answer to what the subject at hand means to your mind?

lol...you ignored me on Rom 5, and when grace came, you ignored how the prophets SEARCHED for grace, all of which I posted text to prove that they did not have what we have under the old cov, then you want to come back and do your semantical questioning again?! uh uh. I argue text, if you can't fine, no big deal, but i will respond to Biblical arguments, not ones that come from a human origin, thanks!

 

[Meowzltov]

you ignored me on Rom 5, and when grace came, you ignored how the prophets SEARCHED for grace

I answered this, and you never bothered to reply to my statement.

 

[Lulav]

The glory of

lol...you ignored me on Rom 5, and when grace came, you ignored how the prophets SEARCHED for grace, all of which I posted text to prove that they did not have what we have under the old cov, then you want to come back and do your semantical questioning again?! uh uh. I argue text, if you can't fine, no big deal, but i will respond to Biblical arguments, not ones that come from a human origin, thanks!

No, I did not ignore you but I can't continue this conversation without knowing how you define grace. If you can't answer that there's no need to bother with your rebuttals.

I guess that means you can't answer my question. What then is the purpose of discussing this if you can't answer to what the subject at hand means to your mind?

but i will respond to Biblical arguments, not ones that come from a human origin, thanks!

So then why are you posting to me, a human? You can't answer a simple question, what is grace to you, what does it mean, what is your definition?

 

[Frogster]

No, I did not ignore you but I can't continue this conversation without knowing how you define grace. If you can't answer that there's no need to bother with your rebuttals.



So then why are you posting to me, a human? You can't answer a simple question, what is grace to you, what does it mean, what is your definition?

more semantics, please go back and respond to the text, that grace came in the new cov, gospel, as per Rom 5, and 1 peter 1, and alot more that I posted.

 

[Lulav]

more semantics, please go back and respond to the text, that grace came in the new cov, gospel, as per Rom 5, and 1 peter 1, and alot more that I posted.

No, I want to hear how you understand grace, no use going on until then, if you can't give your understanding then this isn't the topic for you apparently.

 

[Steeno7]

Actually, chen means 'favor' it is the favor of G-d given without us earning it.

Sadly the NT word we have is written in Greek which had no equivalent, instead they used a word that is attached to mythology

However it is to mean the same thing as in Hebrew, thus the examples I gave are correct.

Greek 5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term
Hebrew 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

This may help you to understand. The same word translated as 'grace' in the epistles is also used Luke regarding Mary who did nothing to earn this.

"And the angel came to her and said, "Rejoice, favored (root-charis) woman! The Lord is with you."

Ummmm, no. The Hebrew and Greek languages simply did not have a term for what we know as the new covenant concept of "grace". God's graciousness in the OT is not the same as participating in the activity of God in Jesus Christ as "grace" is used in the NT. The relatively obscure Greek charis was taken by Paul and the other NT writers and imbued with powerful new meaning. They use it to refer to a reality that is altogether new and unique...the "new and living way" of the "new covenant", wherein Christians receive "newness of life" in Christ Jesus.

 

[Lulav]

Ummmm, no. The Hebrew and Greek languages simply did not have a term for what we know as the new covenant concept of "grace". God's graciousness in the OT is not the same as participating in the activity of God in Jesus Christ as "grace" is used in the NT. The relatively obscure Greek charis was taken by Paul and the other NT writers and imbued with powerful new meaning. They use it to refer to a reality that is altogether new and unique...the "new and living way" of the "new covenant", wherein Christians receive "newness of life" in Christ Jesus.

Now you are saying that Hebrew didn't have a word? Sorry, I just showed you the word, chen, and now you are saying there was no word in Hebrew back then?

Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

This comes from a Christian bible website


Greek 5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term
Hebrew 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Are you going to say that your understanding is greater?

G-ds favor towards man came with the Messiah, yes, but it is only different in that it was manifest in a way we could see and understand, but it is still the same thing. Stop trying to separate the Messiah from the Father, he said the Father and I are one. That same Father is the G-d of the 'OT'. He did not change, his grace did not change, his way of showing it to man came at the time he appointed.

 

[Frogster]

Now you are saying that Hebrew didn't have a word? Sorry, I just showed you the word, chen, and now you are saying there was no word in Hebrew back then?

Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

This comes from a Christian bible website


Greek 5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term
Hebrew 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Are you going to say that your understanding is greater?

G-ds favor towards man came with the Messiah, yes, but it is only different in that it was manifest in a way we could see and understand, but it is still the same thing. Stop trying to separate the Messiah from the Father, he said the Father and I are one. That same Father is the G-d of the 'OT'. He did not change, his grace did not change, his way of showing it to man came at the time he appointed.

no, sin reigned in death, UNTIL CHRIST!

In heb 10:29, when they were reverting towards Judaism , they were grieving grace!

 

[Steeno7]

Now you are saying that Hebrew didn't have a word? Sorry, I just showed you the word, chen, and now you are saying there was no word in Hebrew back then?

Cognate: 5485 xáris (another feminine noun from xar-, "favor, disposed to, inclined, favorable towards, leaning towards to share benefit") – properly, grace. 5485 (xáris) is preeminently used of the Lord's favor – freely extended to give Himself away to people (because He is "always leaning toward them").

This comes from a Christian bible website


Greek 5485 /xáris ("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term
Hebrew 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

Are you going to say that your understanding is greater?

G-ds favor towards man came with the Messiah, yes, but it is only different in that it was manifest in a way we could see and understand, but it is still the same thing. Stop trying to separate the Messiah from the Father, he said the Father and I are one. That same Father is the G-d of the 'OT'. He did not change, his grace did not change, his way of showing it to man came at the time he appointed.

None of which equates to what we know as the new covenant concept of grace. As has already been explained to you.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Sorry, but no, New covenant "grace" did not exist in the context of the old covenant. The Hebrew language did not have a word for what we know as the new covenant concept of "grace." Why have a word for that which does not exist in your experience? No one would know what it meant. John explains that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ.

The Hebrew word hen in the OT referred primarily to an attribute of God, whereas the Greek word charis in the NT is used to refer to the new and unique activity of God in Jesus Christ.

Actually grace has been available and was in the garden of Eden where it was first revealed.

Consider the sacrifices. Some poor innocent lamb had to die for our sin. That's grace. It was the Old Testament believer who truly understood grace that was saved by it through the sacrifice, all others considered it cheap, which is what I think our proposer is pointing to. That is why Paul asks, Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? He actually answers by saying that God won't have it. So if you think sinning is okay with God, you're mistaken and only people who don't really understand the cost of grace behave this way because grace works by love. Jesus used the example of two who were forgiven: one much, and the other a little. He was not complimentary to the Pharisee whose home he visited.

So how should we treat the grace that saves us?

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

God does;

“And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.” Romans 11:6

"All are justified freely by His grace..." Romans 3:24

"To the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the One He loves." Ephesians 1:6

No, read it again, that which we receive freely is given to us by grace. election is free by grace, and justification is free by grace.

In the translation of Eph 1: 6 the term "which he has freely given us in the one he loves" could literally be written from the Greek as, grace to us in the beloved [or the one He loves]. That is grace that works through Christ toward us and resulting in salvation through faith. This leads to the three elements spoken of in Eph 2:8.

Grace is the act of God and it costs him to provide us with salvation by it. Salvation is free, meaning the faith we accept it with is not of self-willed effort.

However it is true God's grace cost you nothing, but it is not free.