Cheap Grace

[Meowzltov]

What works (of anything) did the thief cross have?

1. he defended Christ to the other thief
2. he acknowledged his sin
3. he asked for salvation even though he didn't understand it very well.

 

[bugkiller]

It doesn't say faith alone. It says faith, and it says not works. but it never says faith alone. So we learn from this verse that faith is part of the pie, and works alone doesn't cut the cake. Boy those were tasty metaphors.

Like usual you're just popin off. The verse says nothing about faith. It talks about works and a God wonderful free gift. My stance is you can have salvation by works if you want. The verse ways those wages is death. I love the free gift and you can have all my wages because I won't be in the pay line to collect them. And Jesus says so in John 5:24. I know I already passed. Glory!!!!!!!!

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

1. he defended Christ to the other thief
2. he acknowledged his sin
3. he asked for salvation even though he didn't understand it very well.

None of which are works of the law. Acknowledging sin isn't a work. Neither is asking for salvation.

Now was the thief saved because he defended Jesus? Nope.

bugkiller

 

[Meowzltov]

My stance is you can have salvation by works if you want.

My concern is that you or others reading this thread might seek salvation by faith alone, and end up not justified at all. I don't really have to requote James, do I? Of course not.

 

[Meowzltov]

None of which are works of the law.

I never said your works had to be works of Mosaic law (not if you are Gentile at least). I simply said good works. Don't confuse the issue.

FWIW, in the case of the thief, defending Jesus was Loving God and loving his neighbor as himself: the very HEART of Torah.

 

[Lulav]

Plus, obedience to 613 commandments would be an easy
yoke and a light burden to someone like Jesus -- assuming
he was God, of course!

-

Nah, his commandments are easy and no one keeps all 613 as they are for a nation and specific individuals.

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

 

[Lulav]

A yoke is exactly the same thing these days. A yoke was a binding device place on an animal to pull a burden. It was most common to yoke (bind two animals together) for work. The animal had to be very close to equal for the yoke to work properly. This is why an individual had a marched team. This is what Paul was getting at about being unequally yoked to an unbeliever.

bugkiller

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

An older, stronger more experienced ox (teacher- Jesus) is placed in a yoke next to a younger less experienced ox (student, disciple). This is how the young ox learns what is expected of him and how to do things the correct way. Jesus then says that he is "humble and gentle of spirit, you will find peace for your heart". He is telling us that as the older and stronger ox, he will be gentle with us and not force us to move faster or work harder than we can bare. The stronger we get, the faster he will move and the harder he will work us.

 

[Lulav]

Like usual you're just popin off. The verse says nothing about faith. It talks about works and a God wonderful free gift. My stance is you can have salvation by works if you want. The verse ways those wages is death. I love the free gift and you can have all my wages because I won't be in the pay line to collect them. And Jesus says so in John 5:24. I know I already passed. Glory!!!!!!!!

bugkiller

You need to get some respect, didn't your momma raise you to respect your elders? Probably not, but G-d demands it wither you want to obey his laws or not.

"Show respect to the elderly, and honor older people. In this way you show respect for your God. I am the L-RD.!

 

[bbbbbbb]

You need to get some respect, didn't your momma raise you to respect your elders? Probably not, but G-d demands it wither you want to obey his laws or not.

"Show respect to the elderly, and honor older people. In this way you show respect for your God. I am the L-RD.!

Are you serious? You think that God is some elderly nonagenarian? You think that God's ways are man's ways and that by doing a few minor things He will be delighted with you?

 

[Lulav]

Are you serious? You think that God is some elderly nonagenarian? You think that God's ways are man's ways and that by doing a few minor things He will be delighted with you?

You apparently have no idea what I was speaking to, so please refrain from sophomoric posts.

 

[JustHisKid]

My concern is that you or others reading this thread might seek salvation by faith alone, and end up not justified at all. I don't really have to requote James, do I? Of course not.

What does "faith alone" mean to you exactly? James is demonstrating that faith will produce works, period. If your life produces no fruit, you are likely just giving God lip service. That's not faith. That's the point. People live according to what they truly believe. That is the heart of the matter.

 

[JustHisKid]

I never said your works had to be works of Mosaic law (not if you are Gentile at least). I simply said good works. Don't confuse the issue.

FWIW, in the case of the thief, defending Jesus was Loving God and loving his neighbor as himself: the very HEART of Torah.

You are confusing the issue by demanding people "do works". Legalism, which is what you are promoting, produces two things; pride and guilt. Neither of which are from the Lord.

 

[Viren]

FWIW, in the case of the thief, defending Jesus was Loving God and loving his neighbor as himself: the very HEART of Torah.

The thief also acknowledged his own sin agreed that he deserved the sentence.

 

[Lulav]

What does "faith alone" mean to you exactly? James is demonstrating that faith will produce works, period. If your life produces no fruit, you are likely just giving God lip service. That's not faith. That's the point. People live according to what they truly believe. That is the heart of the matter.

No James did not say that, he said faith + works not faith produces works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I will shew thee my faith by my works.


You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What shows true faith? obedience to G-d which the devils are not.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

 

[Lulav]

You are confusing the issue by demanding people "do works". Legalism, which is what you are promoting, produces two things; pride and guilt. Neither of which are from the Lord.

Speaking for yourself,

If you don't kill someone are you proud or guilty?

If you are faithful to your spouse are you proud or guilty?

If you don't worship other gods are you proud or guilty?

If you don't steal from someone or some place are you proud or guilty?

10 When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge. 11 Thou shalt stand abroad, and the man to whom thou dost lend shall bring out the pledge abroad unto thee. 12 And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge: 13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the L-RD thy God.

Would doing that make you proud or guilty? G-d calls it merciful and righteous

 

[JustHisKid]

How many times have I heard some Christians complain that they are against "works salvation" by which they mean they don't want a Christian faith that demands anything of them??? I have news for them. Christ demands EVERYTHING of us. OUR VERY LIVES are to be a living sacrifice unto him. That said, how can you complain about God asking our obedience, our faithfulness, our good works? "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works" Eph 2:10. Yes, we are saved by Grace, but not a cheap grace!

By the way, there is no such thing as cheap grace. Grace doesn't cost you a thing.

 

[JustHisKid]

No James did not say that, he said faith + works not faith produces works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I will shew thee my faith by my works.


You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

What shows true faith? obedience to G-d which the devils are not.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

The problem is that you are not taking the whole council of God. We know works do not save us. Our works are garbage and do not please God. I think that is why you do not understand this passage. The whole of Scripture ties together. If you do not understand that, you will cherry pick and build a doctrine upon it and that leads to deception. Grace is not cheap, in fact, it is free.

 

[Lulav]

The problem is that you are not taking the whole council of God. We know works do not save us. Our works are garbage and do not please God. I think that is why you do not understand this passage. The whole of Scripture ties together. If you do not understand that, you will cherry pick and build a doctrine upon it and that leads to deception. Grace is not cheap, in fact, it is free.

I could say the same for you, however I include all the law and prophets as Jesus did and build my understanding from that foundation.

I totally understand what James was teaching, same as his brother. Believing is not the end it is the beginning, if you don't get that you don't have it.

 

[JustHisKid]

Speaking for yourself,

If you don't kill someone are you proud or guilty?

Not doing something is not a work.

If you are faithful to your spouse are you proud or guilty?

Not committing adultery is not a work.

If you don't worship other gods are you proud or guilty?

Not worshiping idols is not a work.

If you don't steal from someone or some place are you proud or guilty?

Not stealing is not a work.
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/24-10.htm

10 When thou dost lend thy brother any thing, thou shalt not go into his house to fetch his pledge. 11 Thou shalt stand abroad, and the man to whom thou dost lend shall bring out the pledge abroad unto thee. 12 And if the man be poor, thou shalt not sleep with his pledge: 13 In any case thou shalt deliver him the pledge again when the sun goeth down, that he may sleep in his own raiment, and bless thee: and it shall be righteousness unto thee before the L-RD thy God.

Would doing that make you proud or guilty? G-d calls it merciful and righteous

It depends on the heart of the the person who does it. If you think you are getting brownie points from God, it will produce pride in you. It is all in the heart. Serving the Lord because you love Him is never a work.

 

[JustHisKid]

I could say the same for you, however I include all the law and prophets as Jesus did and build my understanding from that foundation.

I totally understand what James was teaching, same as his brother. Believing is not the end it is the beginning, if you don't get that you don't have it.

I've repeated this over and over again, faith will produce works. It is the Lord who dwells in His people to will and to do His will for His purposes. If you are banking on your works to earn something, you will be given your pay. Grace is free. You either accept it or you reject it. You can't work for it.

Philippians 2
13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.