Discussion Charistmatic Perspective on Unpardonable Sin

[ARBITER01]

According to the Apostle John a professing Christian turning away from Christ shows evidence that he or she was never genuinely converted in the first place.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

What John is describing has nothing to do with the statements in Hebrews Oscarr. GOD's word does agree amongst the different books, but the understanding is not always applicable to one thought or one instance.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What John is describing has nothing to do with the statements in Hebrews Oscarr. GOD's word does agree amongst the different books, but the understanding is not always applicable to one thought or one instance.

Of course I'm a little different from many Pentecostals in that I tend toward the Calvinist rather than the Arminian. What this means is that becoming genuinely converted to Christ is a more difficult process and once the person is genuinely converted after a period of earnest seeking God with all one's heart and having the experience of total transformation, it is basically impossible for the person to lose their salvation.

The Arminian position tends toward easy believerism based on personal choice and there is the aspect of "easy come, easy go", having the extremist view of some of being able to choose for Christ today, and choose against Him tomorrow. This is where you get people who teach that if a person is not sinlessly perfect or near enough to it they are in danger of losing their salvation. Hence this produces performance-based believers who base their assurance of salvation on how well they are complying with God's moral law. Arminians tend to be more judgmental toward those who struggle with sin. This is because they believe that a person can choose to sin or not to.

Calvinists believe that they are sinners to start with and will always be so until the day they die. What makes them righteous before God is the free gift of the righteousness of God that covers their sinfulness. They tend toward being grace-based through faith in Christ alone, rather than performance-based which has some sort of mixture of grace and compliance with God's moral law. In some respects, Arminian Christianity is similar to the Roman Catholic view of grace plus works.

When I was part of a Charismatic church that was more Arminian than Calvinist, many more people required regular counselling through fear of losing their salvation through personal sin than what one would expect in a church that tends more toward Calvinism. It is performance Christianity that can give rise to cults that control their members by exacting rules of dress, conduct, obedience to "shepherds" with hell being held over them by way of penalty; some even threatening the prospect of hell if they choose to leave their cult, as is the case with a Charismatic Oneness cult community on the West Coast of the South Island of New Zealand (Gloriavale).

In churches that tend toward Calvinism, there is a lot less interference into the personal lives of church members to keep them under the power and control of the church leadership. This is because of the overarching principle of grace through faith apart from performance, where in Arminian churches there is grace, faith plus performance.

 

[Eloy Craft]

If God reveals Himself fully yet is rejected, what more can God do?

Think of those Jesus warned. They were about to reject that revelation.

The rich man in torment asking for a drop of water from Lazarus exemplifies the sin. As does Jesus' final comment on those committing it.
" They wouldn't believe even someone who came back from the dead."

 

[Aldebaran]

It happens when a mature, Spirit-filled Christian* makes a conscious choice to abandon their faith and persistently resists conviction to repent until some point of no return, when the Holy Spirit stops trying.

"For it is impossible for those who

1. were once enlightened, and
2. have tasted the heavenly gift, and
3. have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and
4. have tasted the good word of God and
5. the powers of the age to come,

if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,

since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and put Him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV​

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith,

• giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
• speaking lies in hypocrisy,
• having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,..." 1 Timothy 4:1-2 NKJV

Anyone who feels convicted of sin can repent, and is not too far gone. Those that are too far gone have no aversion to sin nor do they fear Judgment. They do not care to repent.

*The unSaved, newb Believers and Believers with OCD are unable to violate Hebrews 6:4-6.

You had me until the very last line.
It was the Pharisees in Matt 12:22-30 and Mark 3:20-27 who accused Jesus of casting out demons by the ruler of demons, which is what prompted Jesus to make the statement about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I think the Pharisees would qualify as the unsaved rather than those fit the 5 points you showed from Hebrews.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think the Pharisees would qualify as the unsaved rather than those fit the 5 points you showed from Hebrews.

Pharisees had a revelation of sorts in the OT. I was referring to the unChurched lost. (Their erroneous opinions about spiritual matters are to be expected, and do not seem to be binding.)

I think that honest Cessationists are also "works-in-progress." (I got Saved in a Cessationist church.)

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

Look,... someone actually knows their bible!!!

Someone also brought up the section of Hebrews, but that centers around a person purposely turning their back on GOD to serve satan when they are already born again,..... something they knowingly and willfully do. That is called betrayal, not blasphemy.

@jiminpa

From your perspective, is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

 

[Eloy Craft]

When the Gospel has been heard by the entire world and all who will believe it do, all who will not, never will, since they received the full Revelation of God and reject it nevertheless. The world is fit to judge.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

Thanks, as the OP the question I'm wondering about is below.

Look,... someone actually knows their bible!!!

Someone also brought up the section of Hebrews, but that centers around a person purposely turning their back on GOD to serve satan when they are already born again,..... something they knowingly and willfully do. That is called betrayal, not blasphemy.

@jiminpa

From your perspective, is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

 

[Sabertooth]

From your perspective, is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

No one can "accidentally" or "unwittingly" commit the Unpardonable Sin, nor can intrusive thoughts make one commit it.
For so many, that is an OCD lie!

If you are worried about it, the Holy Spirit has not abandoned you.

However, OCD will keep accusing you until you get ruthless with it.

 

[ARBITER01]

Of course I'm a little different from many Pentecostals in that I tend toward the Calvinist rather than the Arminian. What this means is that becoming genuinely converted to Christ is a more difficult process and once the person is genuinely converted after a period of earnest seeking God with all one's heart and having the experience of total transformation, it is basically impossible for the person to lose their salvation.

The Arminian position tends toward easy believerism based on personal choice and there is the aspect of "easy come, easy go", having the extremist view of some of being able to choose for Christ today, and choose against Him tomorrow. This is where you get people who teach that if a person is not sinlessly perfect or near enough to it they are in danger of losing their salvation. Hence this produces performance-based believers who base their assurance of salvation on how well they are complying with God's moral law. Arminians tend to be more judgmental toward those who struggle with sin. This is because they believe that a person can choose to sin or not to.

Calvinists believe that they are sinners to start with and will always be so until the day they die. What makes them righteous before God is the free gift of the righteousness of God that covers their sinfulness. They tend toward being grace-based through faith in Christ alone, rather than performance-based which has some sort of mixture of grace and compliance with God's moral law. In some respects, Arminian Christianity is similar to the Roman Catholic view of grace plus works.

When I was part of a Charismatic church that was more Arminian than Calvinist, many more people required regular counselling through fear of losing their salvation through personal sin than what one would expect in a church that tends more toward Calvinism. It is performance Christianity that can give rise to cults that control their members by exacting rules of dress, conduct, obedience to "shepherds" with hell being held over them by way of penalty; some even threatening the prospect of hell if they choose to leave their cult, as is the case with a Charismatic Oneness cult community on the West Coast of the South Island of New Zealand (Gloriavale).

In churches that tend toward Calvinism, there is a lot less interference into the personal lives of church members to keep them under the power and control of the church leadership. This is because of the overarching principle of grace through faith apart from performance, where in Arminian churches there is grace, faith plus performance.

Oscarr,........ you are all over the place with this stuff on here.

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. That was a distraction.

For those still on topic,....satan was a perfect being at one time, even had an anointing from GOD that I suspect none of the other angels had. Knew what the power of GOD was,..... and he still fell.

Adam was created perfect and pure by GOD,.... and he still fell with Eve.

For most people, turning away from GOD after coming into a knowledge of the truth and The Holy Spirit is an impossibility for us,...... but we are not everyone. If it was impossible to betray GOD and walk away from Him, it would not be mentioned in Hebrews as a possibility.

 

[Eloy Craft]

We live in temporal reality. The unforgivable sin is eternal. We can't know if someone's rejection of God is eternal even if we see their last breath.
Yet it is difficult to believe it hasn't happened. It follows then that many reject God to the end. That being so it stands to reason that many alive today are eternally rejecting God so their sin isn't temporal but eternal.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Only God by grace can save us. We never turn to God on our own. We need faith and to receive grace, such as in Hebrews 6:4-7 and Hebrews 10:26-39 mentions a bad fate.

Once a believer, born again... has received all the graces of God, every avenue to salvation from sin and to be sanctified, if he hardens his heart to it all, such as with a Hebrew in the first century, going with the party of the Pharisees, and agreeing that it was right to punish Jesus as a false prophet... he crucifies Jesus all over again and there is no grace to soften his heart back to repentance. He may have wanted to get his land back from the Jews, who confiscated it.

We should remain reverent and loving and open to God's grace.

We are saved by grace through faith. Not by works or faith alone. Our response to grace depends on us and that we are prepared. I once received Jesus' sacred blood, to a clean heart and no fear. But I also was once hardened my heart to Jesus' sacred blood because of confusion at the moment of pouring. Grace is not irresistible.

Teachings on predestiny from the medieval scholars erringly hold that babies without baptism if they die go to Hell or Limbo. Rather they are saved by grace and not by works or innocence. The light and love and living water, they take to it readily.

Only when people see years and learn errors, are tempted... do they harden to grace. It is not God's choice for them.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,........ you are all over the place with this stuff on here.

What you posted has absolutely nothing to do with what we are discussing. That was a distraction.

For those still on topic,....satan was a perfect being at one time, even had an anointing from GOD that I suspect none of the other angels had. Knew what the power of GOD was,..... and he still fell.

Adam was created perfect and pure by GOD,.... and he still fell with Eve.

For most people, turning away from GOD after coming into a knowledge of the truth and The Holy Spirit is an impossibility for us,...... but we are not everyone. If it was impossible to betray GOD and walk away from Him, it would not be mentioned in Hebrews as a possibility.

My view on what I see written in the Bible is that a genuinely converted believer will never walk away from Christ. If that was possible, then many promises in the Bible are lies and the Bible is not worth the paper it is printed on.

It is interesting that here, election through God's grace and man's personal choice run side by side in parallel. Both are true according to Scripture. We don't see the merger here on earth, but we may see how both can be consistent with each other when we get into eternity.

This is where extremism causes confusion. Some believe that our salvation comes through personal choice alone, and others believe that it is through predestination alone. Yet in the Bible, there are clear Scriptures that show that both are true. I believe that salvation is all of God and that He will keep me from falling until I see Him in glory; yet I know that people will be judged in the Judgment through their personal choice about whether they chose to believe the Gospel or not.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

As the OP, I'm trying to get back on topic here. I'm wondering is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As the OP, I'm trying to get back on topic here. I'm wondering is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

A genuinely converted believer cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit. The warning that Jesus gave was to unconverted hypocritical Pharisees. He doesn't have to warn genuine believers because He knows that they will never do anything that will grieve the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

Is it the standard charismatic perspective to say that a genuinely converted believer cannot ever blaspheme the Holy Spirit? (including if they were to backslide and fall away, and then blaspheme)

 

[Sabertooth]

I'm wondering is it enough to just blaspheme against the Holy Spirit once, or if one repents of that and rightly believes in the Holy Spirit's work, does that mean they haven't done the unpardonable sin?

Misidentification of the Holy Spirit's works out of ignorance is not the same thing as knowingly lying about Him.
If you are inclined to repent, then you have not (yet) crossed that line.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is it the standard charismatic perspective to say that a genuinely converted believer cannot ever blaspheme the Holy Spirit? (including if they were to backslide and fall away, and then blaspheme)

My view is that a genuinely converted believer cannot fall away from Christ. What! A believer is converted and then around half a year later is de-converted! Doesn't say much for the transformation that the Holy Spirit does in a believer's heart, does it? What does the Apostle John say? "Anyone who is born of God does not sin" (1 John 3:9). Does that mean that a person born of God doesn't sin today, but maybe he will turn to sin in a year's time? Doesn't say much about the continuing work of the indwelling Holy Spirit developing progressive sanctification in the person causing them to be stronger, closer to Christ than the year before. So is the Bible lying when it says that the believer is Christ's workmanship to do the good works that God has ordained for them to walk in?

 

[Aldebaran]

My view is that a genuinely converted believer cannot fall away from Christ. What! A believer is converted and then around half a year later is de-converted! Doesn't say much for the transformation that the Holy Spirit does in a believer's heart, does it? What does the Apostle John say? "Anyone who is born of God does not sin" (1 John 3:9). Does that mean that a person born of God doesn't sin today, but maybe he will turn to sin in a year's time? Doesn't say much about the continuing work of the indwelling Holy Spirit developing progressive sanctification in the person causing them to be stronger, closer to Christ than the year before. So is the Bible lying when it says that the believer is Christ's workmanship to do the good works that God has ordained for them to walk in?

Doesn't say much for being sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption either.
Ephesians 4:30
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

 

[Dietrich Johnson]

Misidentification of the Holy Spirit's works out of ignorance is not the same thing as knowingly lying about Him.
If you are inclined to repent, then you have not (yet) crossed that line.

Can you give a little more clarity on what this might look like today? (for someone to knowingly lie about the Holy Spirit and commit the unpardonable sin). No need to be overly specific, but do you mean basically that someone who knows the Holy Spirit accomplished something instead attributes that to something other than the other Spirit (particularly the devil)?