Charismatic/Pentecostal Calvinist

[Jon_]

Do you ever find it strangely convenient that Calvin, and the Scriptures, always agree with you?

No; because the reason I believe the things I do is because the Scriptures elaborate them as such. The reason I agree with Calvin (or Calvin agrees with me, whatever) is because he was an excellent doctor of the Scriptures and was very faithful to their correct meaning. The reason Calvin and the Scriptures "conveniently agree with me" is because I agree with them.

Do you ever find it inconvenient that Calvin and the Scriptures do not agree with you?

Calvin was quite clear - he believed that prophecy had mostly disappeared from use (this is from other sections of his writings) due to lack of faith - not the passing of the Apostles or the closing of the Canon. And here, it seems pretty simple to me, to see that he is saying that although he isn't aware of the on-going gift (he apparently hadn't seen it in operation himself), it may still exist somewhere, and God will likely bring it back during times of need.

Cite your source. You've already misrepresented Calvin once, I'm not about to take your word on this.

The only way I can imagine anyone understanding it any other way is simple blindness. Simply READ. I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm irritated by the fact that you seem to twist texts - Scripture or otherwise - to say things that they clearly don't say.

You misrepresent Calvin by inferring that he teaches something that is directly contradictory to what he says and then you accuse me of twisting the texts? Please. I don't think anyone here is going to buy into that, bub.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

my copies of these are at home, so I will try to gather them up and give you your references by tomorrow sometime. bub.

No; because the reason I believe the things I do is because the Scriptures elaborate them as such. The reason I agree with Calvin (or Calvin agrees with me, whatever) is because he was an excellent doctor of the Scriptures and was very faithful to their correct meaning. The reason Calvin and the Scriptures "conveniently agree with me" is because I agree with them.

Do you ever find it inconvenient that Calvin and the Scriptures do not agree with you?


Cite your source. You've already misrepresented Calvin once, I'm not about to take your word on this.


You misrepresent Calvin by inferring that he teaches something that is directly contradictory to what he says and then you accuse me of twisting the texts? Please. I don't think anyone here is going to buy into that, bub.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

"Do you ever find it inconvenient that Calvin and the Scriptures do not agree with you?"




I have made every attempt, whenever I find that my beliefs do not line up with Scripture, to change them immediately, no matter what problems that may cause. Becoming convinced that prophecy, tongues, and healing (many of the other gifts - teaching, and such - there's not disagreement over...can't figure out why, since they are also gifts, and from the same Holy Spirit) are still operational - or rather, realizing that there is no Biblical case stating that the gifts were to cease, nor that they existed for any other reason that the building up of Christ's church, and thus are in need until He returns - coming to that conclusion kept me from becoming the pastor of an otherwise WONDERFUL p.c.a. church (which I was being raised up to take over), of which I had been a member, a teacher, sometimes a preacher, and an occasional worship leader at for around 10 years. Yet, I see the need for another reformation - an end to dead orthodoxy (not to say all Reformed Baptists and Presbyterians are dead - by no means... there is a great deal of what could be called "Experiential Calvinism" about), and an end to ungrounded "spirit-filled" Christians...both have captured one aspect of the Biblical truth, and missed another. And there are a LOT of us out there - in churches alone, and this may be small in comparison to other "denominations", I can think of over 700 reformed charismatic churches in the US and Europe alone. And those are primarily looking at the numbers from Reformed Charismatic denominations or associations of churches, including a few such congregations from the EPC and Vineyard. This reformation will happen... and your case against the modern day gifts of the Spirit will have to be a lot stronger than they are to stop it, because, I'm convinced, God's the one driving it. I've seen the fruit, and it is good - no, it is GREAT! People passionately in love with God with their hearts & MINDS - craving that experiential side of faith, while falling deeply in love with the Word rightly divided! It's a beautiful thing, and I'm loving every minute of it...

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

Another point, however...
I admit that these sorts of conversations are TERRIBLE to attempt online. It's so easy to impersonalize everything. Honestly, I CAN'T imagine how you can see what you claim to see in those texts - the Scriptures, Calvin - and if we discussed it, probably even the WCF - HOWEVER, I do imagine that, unless you are somehow evil and perverse, which if you were you wouldn't find yourself on this list desperately trying to protect others (and myself) from what you think dangerous and maybe heresy (am I right), you too are doing your best to approach these passages with a mind and heart open to God - attempting to learn what the original author's intent was, and what God wants us both to believe, and do, with it all. So, before I'm tempted to get any more beligerant, let me admit that we are probably both pretty good guys - Bub. ;-) May God's truth SHINE! Amen.

 

[Jon_]

Another point, however... I admit that these sorts of conversations are TERRIBLE to attempt online. It's so easy to impersonalize everything.

Too true; asynchronous communication can be a real hindrance to productive communication.

Honestly, I CAN'T imagine how you can see what you claim to see in those texts - the Scriptures, Calvin - and if we discussed it, probably even the WCF

Yes, this has been expressed to me before—"1 Corinthians clearly talks about gifts!" I certainly cannot dispute that. If a good, biblical argument were put forth in favor of the continuance of gifts, I would certain embrace it. But as it stands, I see that all arguments for the same are fallacious and should thus not be acknowledged.

HOWEVER, I do imagine that, unless you are somehow evil and perverse, which if you were you wouldn't find yourself on this list desperately trying to protect others (and myself) from what you think dangerous and maybe heresy (am I right) . . .

I would stop well short of saying that those who believe in the continuance of spiritual gifts are heretical. I just think they misunderstand the texts.

Now, when discussing denominations that make gifts a focal point (e.g. Pentecostal), then there are other considerations. For instance, some denominations believe that one must speak in tongues or demonstrate another gift in order to be saved (because speaking in tongues is a fruit of baptism by the Holy Spirit, which is required for salvation). This is definitely a candidate for heresy (it denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement).

. . . you too are doing your best to approach these passages with a mind and heart open to God - attempting to learn what the original author's intent was, and what God wants us both to believe, and do, with it all. So, before I'm tempted to get any more beligerant, let me admit that we are probably both pretty good guys - Bub. ;-) May God's truth SHINE! Amen.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

Well, I must say that we've found something that we agree on STRONGLY. I do not believe "spirit-filled" has anything to do with displaying what is often referred to as the "supernatural" gifts (though I think they're all equally supernatural, since they all come from God), but rather, "spirit-filled" means someone displays the spirit's fruit in abundance. I also believe that someone's geniune gifts - even as a "reformed charismatic" may actually be "teaching" or "evangelism" and not tongues, prophecy, or anything else that the charismatic church often elevates far beyond their proper place in the general importance of things. I think, on that, we can whole-heartedly agree. Well, I think...

Jon said:
"Now, when discussing denominations that make gifts a focal point (e.g. Pentecostal), then there are other considerations. For instance, some denominations believe that one must speak in tongues or demonstrate another gift in order to be saved (because speaking in tongues is a fruit of baptism by the Holy Spirit, which is required for salvation). This is definitely a candidate for heresy (it denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement)."

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

I'm sorry. I haven't had any time to look up that reference, and I'm leaving town today until Sunday evening. More to come...

 

[frumanchu]

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MOD HAT OFF

 

[Jon_]

MOD HAT ON

FYI, if you come across a poster who is obviously a retread please simply report them and do not respond to them. When retreads are banned all of their posts are automatically deleted, but if you respond to them and/or quote them those have to be removed manually.

Please...don't feed the trolls!

MOD HAT OFF

Ack, guilty!

You got, it Fru. Thanks for setting me straight.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[michaelmonfre]

I Am A Calvinist Charismatic. I Go To Assembly Of God And Yet Believe In Perseverance Of The Saints. I Worship Like A Charismatic But Think Salvation As A Calvinist And I Am Amillianial Vice Dispensationalist.
I Do Believe In The Sign Gifts I.e; Tongues, Healings, Prophecy But I Believe The Baptism Of The Holy Spirit Is At Conversion. No Second Blessing Theology. Wayne Grudem And Sam Storms Are Charismatic Calvinists.
My First Calvinist Book Was By Arthur Pink "sovereignty Of God". I Don't Find This A Contradiction To Have The Best Of Both Worlds.

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

Okay, here are a number of quotes from Calvin himself regarding spiritual gifts...

Calvin, from "Commentary on 1 Corinthians", pg 305,comparing modern day gifts, as compared to what we see in the Scriptures, explaining WHY it might be that we don't see the same supernatural acts in his day:
"Today we see our own slender resources, our poverty in fact; but this is undoubtedly the punishment we deserve, as the reward for our ingrattitude."
Note, Calvin's thoughts regarding our "poverty" regarding the supernatural gifts spoken of in 1 Corinthians - his case is that "ingrattitude" has led to their disappearance, not "the passing of the Apostles".

Second quote, which we've already discussed some - John Calvin commenting on Eph. 4:11 (taken, not directly from the source but from an article by John Frame quoting Calvin on this very subject) claims that the term prophet refers to "not to all those who were interpreters of God's will, but to those who excelled in a particular revelation."
So, first - Calvin didn't see the need to associate the term "prophet" with that of the "preacher/teacher" as reformed cessationalists do today. He continued,
"This class either does not exist today or is less commonly seen."
Note - Calvin never makes a case that the gifts have passed. He only implies that if they do exist, he hasn't seen them, so he assumes they must be fairly uncommon - apparently due to the reasons he mentioned in the fore-mentioned quote from his commentary on 1 Corinthians...
Next, he states that these prophets were "instrumental in revealing mysteries and predicting future events'" and that God "now and again revives them as the need of the time demands". Some have wondered whether we was referring to Martin Luther there, but no matter what the case, it would seem that even the role of Apostle - an issue on which I would disagree with Calvin - is still open if God saw that the need arose for such a person!

Calvin, though fairly consistant with himself in comparison to someone like Wesley who couldn't agree with himself on anything it would seem from one book to the next, could have changed his opinions on these things at some point. I'm not aware as to whether his commentaries came before or after - or were written during - his "institutes", but these are the comments I am aware of regarding spiritual gifts.

And, for those non-calvinists - Calvinists don't worship Calvin, nor do we follow everything he said. The only reason I bring him up is that I believe that it's not inconssistent, even from Calvin's own writings, to be a "reformed" or "calvinist" charismatic. But, even if Calvin disagreed with me on this (which he may have - as I said, he may have been inconsistent on this issue, or have changed him mind before he died and published again on this later in life), I would follow the Scriptures.

My crying 10 week old son calls...

blessings to you all!

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

On a related note, here is a POWERFUL sermon by John Piper on Martyn Lloyd-Jones and the supernatural works on the Holy Spirit. I hope that anyone following this thread with check it out:
http://audio44.archive.org/3/audio/MenOfWhomTheWorldWasNotWorthy/04_jones.mp3