Charismatic or "charismania"?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The problem is that "charismania" groups and Prosperity preachers have departed from the simplicity of the true Gospel of Christ. They no longer have their full trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and repentance from sin. They have replaced it with a mystical "experience" they call "heaven coming to earth" (as Bill Johnson teaches). Part of this experience are the kundalini manifestations we see in their services, confusion of tongues in public services, false prophecies that either say nothing, or made up of false promises that are never fulfilled. So, because of their departure from the Gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit has been replaced by a "strange fire" spirit, and has opened the door for spirits that are not of God to invade. The deception is that these people don't know the difference between the Holy Spirit and the strange fire. Another feature is that holiness of life is not so important, and many still have sin in their lives. So it is common for "charismania" people to be involved in immorality, fornication, adultery, porn, consequently we have seen prominent ministries fall from grace as their dishonesty and immorality has been revealed for all to see. This is why those false "word of knowledge" ministries can use facebook profiles and pre-interviews of attendees to their meetings to make it appear they are having "words of knowledge", deceiving their listeners. The tragedy is that they think they are doing nothing wrong. Their consciences are seared so they don't see the evil of what they are doing. The real tragedy is that they are deceiving good people to think that they are the true Charismatic movement when in reality they are a "charismania" heresy.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The no true scotsman fallacy tends to be less and less convincing the more it is applied.

Too much of this between groups in Christianity already.

Just to say.

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem is that "charismania" groups and Prosperity preachers have departed from the simplicity of the true Gospel of Christ. ...

Rubbish.
This is tribalism at its best.

It's easy to find a religious cult.
They are in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same about you.

I think we need to figure out who the REAL enemy is.

 

[Guojing]

The problem is that "charismania" groups and Prosperity preachers have departed from the simplicity of the true Gospel of Christ. They no longer have their full trust in the finished work of Christ on the Cross and repentance from sin. They have replaced it with a mystical "experience" they call "heaven coming to earth" (as Bill Johnson teaches). Part of this experience are the kundalini manifestations we see in their services, confusion of tongues in public services, false prophecies that either say nothing, or made up of false promises that are never fulfilled. So, because of their departure from the Gospel of Christ, the Holy Spirit has been replaced by a "strange fire" spirit, and has opened the door for spirits that are not of God to invade. The deception is that these people don't know the difference between the Holy Spirit and the strange fire. Another feature is that holiness of life is not so important, and many still have sin in their lives. So it is common for "charismania" people to be involved in immorality, fornication, adultery, porn, consequently we have seen prominent ministries fall from grace as their dishonesty and immorality has been revealed for all to see. This is why those false "word of knowledge" ministries can use facebook profiles and pre-interviews of attendees to their meetings to make it appear they are having "words of knowledge", deceiving their listeners. The tragedy is that they think they are doing nothing wrong. Their consciences are seared so they don't see the evil of what they are doing. The real tragedy is that they are deceiving good people to think that they are the true Charismatic movement when in reality they are a "charismania" heresy.

Whenever I read people who claim that, I always ask them

So what do you think is the true Gospel of Christ?

 

[Der Alte]

Rubbish.
This is tribalism at its best.
It's easy to find a religious cult.
They are in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same about you.
I think we need to figure out who the REAL enemy is.

Speak for yourself. Stevereno.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Rubbish.
This is tribalism at its best.

It's easy to find a religious cult.
They are in the church across the street from yours.
And they feel the same about you.

I think we need to figure out who the REAL enemy is.

The problem is that the Gospel has been so watered down in most churches that one wouldn't know who is a real Christian and who is not just from appearances. The world has so gotten into the churches, that they have become just like the world in what they say and do. It is so bad in places that one wouldn't know if the person sitting beside them in church is really converted to Christ, or is a rank hypocrite. If people think that the Prosperity preachers are the same as genuine converts to Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, then maybe they need to get their Bibles down from the shelf, blow the dust off them and have another good read to see who a real Christian actually is.

 

[Saint Steven]

The problem is that the Gospel has been so watered down in most churches that one wouldn't know who is a real Christian and who is not just from appearances. The world has so gotten into the churches, that they have become just like the world in what they say and do. It is so bad in places that one wouldn't know if the person sitting beside them in church is really converted to Christ, or is a rank hypocrite. If people think that the Prosperity preachers are the same as genuine converts to Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, then maybe they need to get their Bibles down from the shelf, blow the dust off them and have another good read to see who a real Christian actually is.

Imagine what you could do for Christ if you built bridges instead of walls.
The church you are defending has MORE problems than the ones you decry.
Some plank removal may be in order. (or beam, if you are KJO)

 

[lismore]

The bible warns of perilous times in the last days, (2 Timothy 3). Jesus, Peter, Paul and indeed the Old Testament Prophets warned repeatedly of false teachers, false prophets and wolves in sheep's clothing in the last days, how to recognize them and what to do once you have identified them. We are to be careful, the bible says that even Satan disguises himself as a messenger of light and the bible also says that even the elect will be fooled by false prophets in the Last Days.

Guard your heart and your mind, you only have one of each.

God Bless

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Imagine what you could do for Christ if you built bridges instead of walls.
The church you are defending has MORE problems than the ones you decry.
Some plank removal may be in order. (or beam, if you are KJO)

I guess Paul would have done more for the body of Christ if he had compromised concerning the guy having nookie with his mother in law, and negotiated a deal with those who were overeating and getting drunk at the Lord's Supper, and established partnership with those who were denying the resurrection. I wonder what Paul would say to our present day churches that are compromising with the world instead of remaining separate from it. And I wonder what he would say to the charismania groups who are bringing the work of the Holy Spirit into disrepute and insulting Him by their stupid kundalini nonsense. I saw a video clip of one Word Faith leader behaving like a complete fool, and if this wackydoodle banatown fellow is representative of the Word Faith movement then God help us all! Hey, you could build a bridge with the guy and have him come minister in your church. That would be a new experience for you guys!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Imagine what you could do for Christ if you built bridges instead of walls.
The church you are defending has MORE problems than the ones you decry.
Some plank removal may be in order. (or beam, if you are KJO)

Oh. I wonder how things would have turned out if Elijah had built a bridge with the prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel? "Hey fellas, let's work things out between us, so we can live together in peace!" Or what about Micaiah and Ahab's prophets? "Let's all agree together that the king is going to win the battle and drive the enemy away. Now Micaiah, don't be a wet blanket. We know you don't have anything to say to the king, but this time, let's keep the peace by agreeing with each other!"

Do you think we would have had a Reformation if Martin Luther decided to compromise with the established church in order to build bridges instead of creating walls by nailing his 95 Theses to the Wittenburg church door?

 

[Der Alte]

The problem is that the Gospel has been so watered down in most churches that one wouldn't know who is a real Christian and who is not just from appearances. The world has so gotten into the churches, that they have become just like the world in what they say and do. It is so bad in places that one wouldn't know if the person sitting beside them in church is really converted to Christ, or is a rank hypocrite. If people think that the Prosperity preachers are the same as genuine converts to Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, then maybe they need to get their Bibles down from the shelf, blow the dust off them and have another good read to see who a real Christian actually is.

I see a lot of vague generalities and virtually no credible, verifiable evidence.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I see a lot of vague generalities and virtually no credible, verifiable evidence.

From observing the teaching and behaviour of the "charismania" crowd is that the idiotic, kundalini manifestations are occurring in those gatherings where the Gospel is not preached, and that the teachers are getting "new revelation", such as health and wealth, people being gods, nine members of the Trinity, Jesus being a manifestation of God instead of being a separate Person, Jesus not being God at all but just a man filled with the Holy Spirit who somehow became divine when He was resurrected. Jesus going down into hell to suffer to complete the Atonement. There is a teaching in some churches that the Cross was not about Atonement for sin, but just to show the love of God that someone was prepared to give his life for the good of humanity.

The true Pentecostal and Charismatic movements that have not gone into this "new revelation" teaching, have not displayed any of the Kundalini behaviour at all. They have put the true Gospel of Christ first, and allowed the Holy Spirit to distribute the supernatural gifts to make the preaching of the Gospel more powerful and effective for winning souls and making disciples for Christ.

The "charismania" folk with all their idiotic behaviour are letting all the steam power go out through the whistle instead of the Gospel driving wheels.

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh. I wonder how things would have turned out if Elijah had built a bridge with the prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel?

Don't forget to feed the alligators in the moat. - LOL

 

[NBB]

You should be careful, if you start saying all words of knoweldge and prophecy are not from God i think your unbelief is getting you into trouble.
Just because you haven't seen this yourself, you can't say it doesn't exists.
Why not focus on the true pentecostal movements, that God is doing a lot of stuff, instead on the bad.
Because this confuses people thinking they are all bad. Obviously the enemy is interested in having people who only cares for money etc.
Don't mix them up with the good folks.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You should be careful, if you start saying all words of knoweldge and prophecy are not from God i think your unbelief is getting you into trouble.
Just because you haven't seen this yourself, you can't say it doesn't exists.
Why not focus on the true pentecostal movements, that God is doing a lot of stuff, instead on the bad.
Because this confuses people thinking they are all bad. Obviously the enemy is interested in having people who only cares for money etc.
Don't mix them up with the good folks.

The true Pentecostal movement is shown in what took place at Azusa Street. When the 120 in the upper room got filled with the Holy Spirit the whole city knew about it. The same with Azusa Street. Both events had a major impact on the community around them. Even though there can be Pentecostal and Charismatic churches on many street corners in our cities, the secular community don't even know they are there. nor do they really care. Perhaps there is too much organising in the supper room instead of agonising in the upper room.

 

[NBB]

The true Pentecostal movement is shown in what took place at Azusa Street. When the 120 in the upper room got filled with the Holy Spirit the whole city knew about it. The same with Azusa Street. Both events had a major impact on the community around them. Even though there can be Pentecostal and Charismatic churches on many street corners in our cities, the secular community don't even know they are there. nor do they really care. Perhaps there is too much organising in the supper room instead of agonising in the upper room.

I don't think that is true, i go to a small pentecostal church, and in some meetings the Holy spirit is sensed even on the faces of people.
Lots of testimonies of people lives changed for the better. Quitting family abuse and drugs alcohol suicide now they preach.
Do they are having a major impact on the city? no.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't think that is true, i go to a small pentecostal church, and in some meetings the Holy spirit is sensed even on the faces of people.
Lots of testimonies of people lives changed for the better. Quitting family abuse and drugs alcohol suicide now they preach.
Do they are having a major impact on the city? no.

It's great to see that your church is bearing fruit. It is a wonderful testimony of a church that is alive and thriving.

The reason why I am saying the things I am saying about the church in general is not to "beat up the body of Christ" as one member accused me of doing. The church I attend is a Union, Methodist/Presbyterian non-Charismatic church that if we get 20 to a service it is a revival. Although I am Spirit-filled Reformed, we have people who are modernist liberals as well. But they are welcoming and accepting when I preach the Word to them. But I am also praying for them that they will receive more of the Holy Spirit and have a clearer appreciation of who Jesus is.

What I am reflecting in my posts, is that no matter how fruitful a church is, there is more that we can receive from God, especially in the power of the Holy Spirit to awaken the secular community to their danger as they are on the road to hell. No matter how many blessing we receive in our churches, there are multitudes around our churches who are going to hell. So, I feel a dissatisfaction that we are not getting hold of God to access the dynamic power of the Holy Spirit that convicts sinners outside of the church of sin, righteousness and judgment to come.

We should not rest in satisfaction that our programmes are bearing fruit for our members, but we should have a greater burden for those who are lost. That burden can come only from the heart of God through the work of the Holy Spirit in us, and the only way that can happen is through constant prayer that lays hold of God and won't let Him go until the Holy Spirit falls.

My church is probably nowhere as fruitful as yours, but I have decided not to let that stop me from expressing dissatisfaction with the general state of the churches and calling out for more believers who will pray without ceasing for revival that will bring a harvest of souls for the Lord.

 

[Blade]

Well I understand the lenses you are looking through so to speak. You said strange fire yet you made sure to put it in quotes. Now in case you don't know that book was written by a great man of God but he does not believe in the gifts as working today. So it will look foolish or evil or false or pagan on and on. If I was to quote a faith preacher/preachers that will if you ask show you in the word of God what is written about prosperity will tell you "there is no such thing as prosperity gospel" The world says that then some believer follow what the world says.

So this is where I leave I could say so much more but.. its not words of life. Its not talking about the good the do for Christ which I know of yet oddly not spoken of. When you read ACTS is that the past? See Acts is Christianity. So I will not be apart of talk like this..

 

[jiminpa]

Thinly masked cessationism.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You should be careful, if you start saying all words of knoweldge and prophecy are not from God i think your unbelief is getting you into trouble.
Just because you haven't seen this yourself, you can't say it doesn't exists.
Why not focus on the true pentecostal movements, that God is doing a lot of stuff, instead on the bad.
Because this confuses people thinking they are all bad. Obviously the enemy is interested in having people who only cares for money etc.
Don't mix them up with the good folks.

The true Pentecostal movement occurred at the start of the 20th Century. We think that what we have today is the same as to what happened then. The fact is that it isn't. The Pentecostal movement today is nothing like what it was then. In fact, we have little idea of what the Pentecostal revival was like 1902, because none of us were there to be eye witnesses. For instance, the early movement consisted in a revival of holy living and a burden for lost souls. Multitudes of souls were won to Christ. Prayer was the foundation, and Mr Seymour at Azusa Street spent more time in prayer than anything else. When the next generation stopped praying, the movement changed, losing its cutting edge. Consequently, after 110 years we have Pentecostalism in name and its articles of faith, and churches full of people having a good time and doing some social activities in the community, but the real power of the Gospel of Christ has leaked away. Most have lost the art of persistent prayer where prayer without giving up is vital to achieving a revival. As James says, "We have not because we ask not." We have people who are playing instead of praying, organising in the supper room instead of agonising in the upper room, superficial instead of supernatural, and people being sanctimonious instead of sanctified.