Changing your mind about prophecy

[BABerean2]

pre-trib is a misnomer for pre-70th week. The Great Tribulation does not begin until the middle part of that week.

The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

You have yet to explain the time period when the Gospel was taken "first" to the Jews in Romans 1:16.

How long was that period of time?

See also Matthew 10:5-7, and Galatians 1:14-18, and the passage below.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

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[Douggg]

The only way to see the 70th week of Daniel is with a time machine set to return you to the first century.

BaB2, you are digging in your heels instead of changing your eschatology and beliefs to comply with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework.

The 7 year 70th week is future to comply with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework. Which includes:

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Everything you have been posting here for a decade, the copy and pastes, the videos, have all been non compliant with Ezekiel 39, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth v21-29, following Armageddon v17-20, following by 7 year the destruction of Gog's army v1-6.

 

[BABerean2]

BaB2, you are digging in your heels instead of changing your eschatology and beliefs to comply with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework.

The 7 year 70th week is future to comply with the Ezekiel 39 infallible timeline framework. Which includes:

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Everything you have been posting here for a decade, the copy and pastes, the videos, have all been non compliant with Ezekiel 39, Jesus Himself speaking in the text having returned to earth v21-29, following Armageddon v17-20, following by 7 year the destruction of Gog's army v1-6.

Instead of making accusations against those who do not agree with you, try to explain Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:34-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

Your problem with a future 70th week of Daniel is found in the Bible, instead of with me.

If you think Ezekiel 39 erases these passages, you have revealed your doctrine for what it really is.

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[Douggg]

Instead of making accusations against those who do not agree with you, try to explain Matthew 10:5-7, and Acts of the Apostles 10:34-38, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.

Your problem is found in the Bible, instead of with me.



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I don't have a problem with the bible. Nor do I have a problem with you. You are the one who has erroneous beliefs that are out of compliance with Ezekiel 39, the infallible timeline framework of the end times.

Your ploy to promote New Covenant theology movement's assertions is not working because there is the elephant standing in the room called Ezekiel 39.

 

[JulieB67]

If you can't approach each person's position with an open mind, i.e. willing to change your own position if necessary, then it's pointless even posting in this forum at all

I agree! Interesting enough it was actually a Christian forum that caused me to question my beliefs. I had joined one years ago, can't remember the name but I saw where someone had said the rapture was false and it really jarred me because I had been going through life secure with that belief because I had trusted what I had been taught sitting in a church pew all those years ago, along with my family teaching me. I never questioned it.
And it was because, even though I had called myself a Christian I had never read the Bible in it's entirety, never studied to show myself approved. This was on me. And that's when I made a change at that point in my life about really getting into his Word. Thank God for his patience. And no offense to many churches out there if you are getting fed properly but what does one or two verses leading into a "personal" written sermon get you in a lifetime? I learned more in the first five months of my own bible study than I did in the "years" of sitting in a church pew -again, no offense. But we have to be able to back up our beliefs in the Bible.

and the promises God made to the body of Christ through Paul, Jude and John, and Jesus in the gospels, then one can only conclude the bible clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture. That is why we have no need to prepare for the mark.

No offense, but if I thought the Bible clearly taught a pretrib rapture I would still be believing in it. Why would someone who had believed in a pretrib rapture most of their entire life stop believing in it? Instead 20 years later I am even more secure than ever it does "not" teach a pretrib rapture.

Now I will forever be a student, always trying to grow and learn new things every day but on this belief, wouldn't we want to believe Christ and Paul when they say beware? And not to be deceived by "any means" on this very subject? It's very serious. So serious Paul himself had to write a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians because they too were confused and thought Christ's could come back at any time. He then writes the second letter, tells then not to be confused -even by his first letter. And then nails down the timing. And his teaching is a second witness to Christ's own teaching. How can we not take them at their word? I'm to trying to start a new debate on this thread, there are many out there for that but when I first set out on my own, that was the very first belief I dropped. I could not find it in the Bible, quite the opposite. What people had taught me about two seperate events was actually one. I never read anything that would lead me to believe Christ comes back 2 more times instead of one more when I read verse by verse, chapter by chapter.

My father (who has since passed away) was a firm believer in the rapture and a Scofield Bible fan and would quote 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses all the time to me. But I would ask, did you read further into chapter 5? And then into 2nd Thessalonians and he would stop short. I know he hadn't. And I would think, we wouldn't read any other book that way so why would we not read the Bible verse by verse and chapter by chapter. My father was a great one for pulling verses out. I hate in a way to use him as an example but he trusted his pastors and still did to the day he died I'm pretty sure. He was upset at me for questioning what I had been taught and that upset me. We should always question and seek out the truth for ourselves.

I know you are secure in your beliefs and that's fine but I'd rather believe Christ and Pauls warnings and teachings on the subject.

 

[Douggg]

. So serious Paul himself had to write a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians because they too were confused and thought Christ's could come back at any time. He then writes the second letter, tells then not to be confused -even by his first letter. And then nails down the timing

@ nolidad as well.

In 2Thessalonians2, Paul was addressing the Thessalonians' concern that they had been left behind and the Day of the Lord had begun.

Paul assured them that the Day of the Lord had not begun because the Day of Lord does not begin until there is the great falling away and the man of sin be revealed by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

Paul confirmed what he had told the Thessalonians earlier in 1Thesslaonians5, that believers are not appointed to the wrath that comes when the Day of the Lord begins.

Paul was not "pinpointing" the rapture. The rapture could happen today.

___________________________________________________________

The only fault in the pre-trib rapture view is pre-tribbers' claim that the rapture must take place before the 70th week begins.

While, bibically speaking, the rapture only has to happen before the man of sin is revealed by his act of going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Sometime in the middle of the 70th week.

What makes the rapture "anytime", it is not biblically stated how far before the man of sin's act, the rapture takes place.

 

[jgr]

jgr, you are being over-dramatic. You are not the only one though. There is the other side as well.

Douggg, explain how recognizing Christ as the theme of all Scripture is being over-dramatic.

 

[Douggg]

Douggg, explain how recognizing Christ as the theme of all Scripture is being over-dramatic.

not that, but this...

"The carnalized racialized dispensational mind is incapable of recognizing that truth, and that the entirety of Scripture is about Him.

Not futurized fantasies and fallacies about Jews and Israel and antichrist and rapture and all other modernist manifestations of interpretation by hallucination."

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There are prophesies that state Jesus will come and set up worldly justice and order, is there not?

No, there is not. When He comes He will deliver the kingdom to the Father and the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at that time.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 24:3). This is what will happen at that time:

Matthew 13:40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

At the end of the age, Christ's kingdom will be handed over and delivered to the Father at which point it will be the Father's kingdom. That will be on the new earth where we will dwell with the Father and the Son forever.

This is part of why Jews say they reject Jesus as Messiah. There is still work to be done here.

Why would you agree with non-Christian Jews about what is supposed to happen in the future?

 

[JulieB67]

Paul was not "pinpointing" the rapture. The rapture could happen today.

You are splitting Christ's return which happens at the Lord's Day into two. That's the thing. The subject never changes from then end of chapter 4 into 2nd Thessalonians. He specifically tells the Thessalonians that "day shall not happen..."

It's the very same day he's discussing in chapter 5 of 1st Thessalonians when he named the event of chapter 4. The subject never changed. So Paul very specifally tells them the day of Christ was not at hand and that certain things must happen before that. So no, it could not happen today.

While, bibically speaking, the rapture only has to happen before the man of sin is revealed

Impossible to be biblical when Paul says the exact opposite and that's what he's explaining to the Thessalonians.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

My father (who has since passed away) was a firm believer in the rapture and a Scofield Bible fan and would quote 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses all the time to me. But I would ask, did you read further into chapter 5? And then into 2nd Thessalonians and he would stop short. I know he hadn't. And I would think, we wouldn't read any other book that way so why would we not read the Bible verse by verse and chapter by chapter. My father was a great one for pulling verses out. I hate in a way to use him as an example but he trusted his pastors and still did to the day he died I'm pretty sure. He was upset at me for questioning what I had been taught and that upset me. We should always question and seek out the truth for ourselves.

It is very unfortunate that the translators decided to put a chapter break between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5. That was a mistake on their part. It makes some people think that 1 Thess 5 is about an entirely different event than 1 Thess 4:13-18, but it is not. All one has to do is read 2 Thess 1:7-10 to see that 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is the same event, namely the second coming of Christ, and it all will happen on the same day when He returns.

 

[Douggg]

It's the very same day he's discussing in chapter 5 of 1st Thessalonians when he named the event of chapter 4. The subject never changed. So Paul very specifally tells them the day of Christ was not at hand and that certain things must happen before that. So no, it could not happen today.

The Day of the Lord can not start today.

But the rapture could happen today.

 

[JulieB67]

It is very unfortunate that the translators decided to put a chapter break between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5. That was a mistake on their part. It makes some people think that 1 Thess 5 is about an entirely different event than 1 Thess 4:13-18, but it is not.

Exactly! And people seem to forget there were no chapters, these were letters.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Day of the Lord can not start today.

But the rapture could happen today.

The rapture can't happen today if the falling away from the faith and man of sin being revealed haven't happened yet.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Clearly, the context of what Paul wrote about here is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and..our gathering together unto Him", which is an obvious reference to His second coming and the rapture that will occur on that day. The same event Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10.

Paul indicated that they should not let anyone make them think that the day of His coming and our gathering to Him was at hand because a falling away and the man of sin being revealed had to happen first. So, for you to try to say that His coming and our being gathered to Him (the rapture) could happen before the falling away and man of sin being revealed completely contradicts what Paul taught.

 

[Douggg]

The rapture can't happen today if the falling away from the faith and man of sin being revealed haven't happened yet.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Clearly, the context of what Paul wrote about here is "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and..our gathering together unto Him", which is an obvious reference to His second coming and the rapture that will occur on that day. The same event Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10.

Paul indicated that they should not let anyone make them think that the day of His coming and our gathering to Him was at hand because a falling away and the man of sin being revealed had to happen first. So, for you to try to say that His coming and our being gathered to Him (the rapture) could happen before the falling away and man of sin being revealed completely contradicts what Paul taught.

So you are saying the Day of the Lord cannot start today?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

So you are saying the Day of the Lord cannot start today?

With the understanding that the Day of the Lord is the day Christ returns and we are gathered to Him, that all depends on if the falling away that Paul talked about has occurred yet or not. I do see a lot of apostasy going on in recent years, so I'm not certain if the falling away has already happened or not. I'm thinking maybe not quite yet as things will probably get even worse, but it seems to be headed that way pretty quickly if the way things are going are any indication.

Do you have any specific thoughts on what I said in post #254?

 

[Timtofly]

But, they do have a choice, like all people have choice. I guess I just feel genuinely confused as to why you'd say these people have no choice when the description of them is so contrary to that. These people put Jesus first in everything. To me, that is really amazing and inspiring; something that we all should aspire to. But to you, it is some mechanical thing that they have no choice in. It's like your interpretation sucks all the joy and beauty out of what it means to put Jesus first.

Well Paul and the Apostles are my inspiration, not some future people yet to be literally sealed with God’s name in their foreheads. Especially compared to those with 666 branded on their foreheads. It does not matter if you apply that to a spiritual truth or not.

The truth of the matter is every human is a "mechanical" revelation of God, like it or not. God has a hand in the birth of every human in the womb. How the soul handles the experiences of life detemines the souls outlook on life. Not God not life. Your attitude about life is who you are. Of course the closer we get to reality, the uglier it becomes.

 

[nolidad]

No offense, but if I thought the Bible clearly taught a pretrib rapture I would still be believing in it. Why would someone who had believed in a pretrib rapture most of their entire life stop believing in it? Instead 20 years later I am even more secure than ever it does "not" teach a pretrib rapture.

Why would someone who grew up believing in Amillenialism, then after being saved and studying became post trib then after more bible study became pre trib and stay that way for over 40 years?

Now I will forever be a student, always trying to grow and learn new things every day but on this belief, wouldn't we want to believe Christ and Paul when they say beware? And not to be deceived by "any means" on this very subject? It's very serious. So serious Paul himself had to write a 2nd letter to the Thessalonians because they too were confused and thought Christ's could come back at any time. He then writes the second letter, tells then not to be confused -even by his first letter. And then nails down the timing. And his teaching is a second witness to Christ's own teaching. How can we not take them at their word? I'm to trying to start a new debate on this thread, there are many out there for that but when I first set out on my own, that was the very first belief I dropped. I could not find it in the Bible, quite the opposite. What people had taught me about two seperate events was actually one. I never read anything that would lead me to believe Christ comes back 2 more times instead of one more when I read verse by verse, chapter by chapter.

I do take both Jesus and Paul at their word. I am a very strong literal/historical/ grammatical hermeneutical person.

As I have said many times, there is no passage that specifically says the rapture will occur at such a time (pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib, post mill) in any way. However when one learns the 2 purposes of the 70th week of Daniel aka the tribulation, that it and not hell are known as the wrath of god or the Lamb and that Paul expressly said that the church will be delievered from the wrath to come, pre trib becomes the only solution.

I know you are secure in your beliefs and that's fine but I'd rather believe Christ and Pauls warnings and teachings on the subject.

As do I that is why I am so confident in a pre-trib rapture.

My father (who has since passed away) was a firm believer in the rapture and a Scofield Bible fan and would quote 1st Thessalonians chapter 4 verses all the time to me. But I would ask, did you read further into chapter 5? And then into 2nd Thessalonians and he would stop short. I know he hadn't. And I would think, we wouldn't read any other book that way so why would we not read the Bible verse by verse and chapter by chapter. My father was a great one for pulling verses out. I hate in a way to use him as an example but he trusted his pastors and still did to the day he died I'm pretty sure. He was upset at me for questioning what I had been taught and that upset me. We should always question and seek out the truth for ourselves.

Your last question is something I have always taught my students for over 35 years! I can assure you, your fathers issues are not mine!

We should read the Bible verse by verse and chapter by chapter! But we also need to remember that the Bible, even though written by numerous authors over thousands of years still is a unified theme! So what is foretold in the old testament about the end days will not contradict what is written in teh New! And that topics in the Bible (like eschatology , soteriology etc.) are not gleaned from just one verse or chapter or even book, but we must see the whole counsel of Scripture on that subject and put them together to get the full picture.

My Pastors always hate when I came to them after a message. For usually it was because I had an issue with their message!

 

[nolidad]

So you are saying the Day of the Lord cannot start today?

Though directed t someone else, I can answer most assuredly- NO! the Day of the Lord cannot happen today. And it depends upon which particular day.

the 70th week of Daniel when it arrives is called the day of the Lord many times in the OT.
IN Peter the destruction of the universe and earth before being remade new is also called the day of the Lord.

There are still several prophetical events that must occur before the Day of the Lord (the 70th week of Daniel) can begin.

 

[Douggg]

With the understanding that the Day of the Lord is the day Christ returns and we are gathered to Him,

The bible says regarding the rapture, the one taken, one left - no one know the day nor hour. You are claiming the day of the rapture is the start of the Day of the Lord. You are in conflict with the bible.