Changing Times.

Ignatius the Kiwi · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Episcopal - 'The Bible commandment says on the seventh day thou shalt rest. That is Saturday. Nowhere in the Bible is it laid down that worship should be done on Sunday." Philip Carrington, Toronto Daily Star, October 26, 1949.

No it's not laid down, though we see examples of the Apostles gathering on the Sunday to worship. This translated through to the second century and is considered an unwritten apostolic tradition for which I have no reason to deny. I don't believe in Sola Scriptura and see no reason to consider the practice of the latter church an impious innovation.

There are obvious reasons why Christians began to worship on the Lord's day, it being the day he rose from the dead.

Still, I find it hypocritical that you judge us for 'breaking the law' when you won't even advocate for killing disobedient children. Perhaps you should fulfill all the law before you turn around and condemn others.

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Martin J. Scott- Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927) "Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday .... Now the Church ... instituted, by God's authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday."

Could you explain:

Acts 20:17
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Acts 20:17
7On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.

What would you like me to explain?

Are you suggesting that we can't eat and talk during weekdays?

Baptist - Harold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity , said, 'There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Christianity Today, November 5, 1976.

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
I believe that we are called to worship incessantly; but what does have to do with honoring YHWH's Shabbat?

Exodus 31
12 YAHWEH said to Moshe, 13 Tell the people of Isra’el, ‘You are to observe my Shabbats; for this is a sign between me and you through all your generations; so that you will know that I am YAHWEH, who sets you apart for me. 17 It is a sign between me and the people of Isra’el forever; for in six days ADONAI made heaven and earth, but on the seventh day he stopped working and rested.’

Well, I happen to agree with the above and God does not change His mind...does He?

So this is rather complicated for me.

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Colossians 2:16-17
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

This was directed at new converts coming out of Paganism, not at people who had been Torah obedient all of their lives.

It's saying don't let your Pagan friends and relatives judge you as you keep Torah. I've seen myself how people who reject the Torah will try to judge you for keeping it. The biggest one is that they push their pork on you.

Baptist Dr. Edward T. Hiscox,-a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner, Nov. 16, 1893. "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not....."To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question .... never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.... "Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history ..... But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Well, I happen to agree with the above and God does not change His mind...does He?

So this is rather complicated for me.

I'm pleased to hear this. It gets lees complicated when we stop listening to the doctrines of men; and pay more attention to what YHWH says.

William Owen Carver- The Lord's Day in Our Day "There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance."

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
What would you like me to explain?

Are you suggesting that we can't eat and talk during weekdays?

Baptist - Harold Lindsell, former editor of Christianity , said, 'There is nothing in Scripture that requires us to keep Sunday rather than Saturday as a holy day." Christianity Today, November 5, 1976.

Wow...you DO love your magazines and quotes, don't you?

I like to go by what the bible states myself.
When you're standing before God,,,He'll judge you on YOUR belilefs, NOT what Harold Lindsell believed.

Please don't be silly with me....
Acts 20:7 gives the impression that they BROKE BREAD on Sunday.

Breaking Bread = Communion
and they were gathered on Sunday....

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
This was directed at new converts coming out of Paganism, not at people who had been Torah obedient all of their lives.

It's saying don't let your Pagan friends and relatives judge you as you keep Torah. I've seen myself how people who reject the Torah will try to judge you for keeping it. The biggest one is that they push their pork on you.

Baptist Dr. Edward T. Hiscox,-a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner, Nov. 16, 1893. "There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not....."To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question .... never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.... "Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history ..... But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"

So, are you saying that you keep the Torah?

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Please don't be silly with me....
Acts 20:7 gives the impression that they BROKE BREAD on Sunday.

Breaking Bread = Communion
and they were gathered on Sunday....

Because they gathered on SUNday is no indication that they rebelled against YHWH's Shabbat.

Dr. R. W. Dale(Congregationalist)- The Ten Commandments " ... it is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath -- ...the Sabbath was founded on a specific Divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday ..... There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday."

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
I'm pleased to hear this. It gets lees complicated when we stop listening to the doctrines of men; and pay more attention to what YHWH says.

William Owen Carver- The Lord's Day in Our Day "There was never any formal or authoritative change from the Jewish seventh-day Sabbath to the Christian first-day observance."

LOL
Why do you keep posting what other men believe...
if you're telling me to stop listening to the doctrine of men!!

Isn't this an oxymoron?

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
So, are you saying that you keep the Torah?

How is my personal obedience relevant to the changing of YHWH's Kadosh appointment with man?

Congregationalist Timothy Dwight- Theology: Explained and Defended (1823) " ....the Christian Sabbath [SUNday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath."

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
LOL
Why do you keep posting what other men believe...
if you're telling me to stop listening to the doctrine of men!!

Isn't this an oxymoron?

These men acknowledge the rebellion against YHWH's word. Does their exposing it bother you?

First Day Observance, pp. 17, 19."The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change."

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
Because they gathered on SUNday is no indication that they rebelled against YHWH's Shabbat.

Dr. R. W. Dale(Congregationalist)- The Ten Commandments " ... it is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath -- ...the Sabbath was founded on a specific Divine command. We can plead no such command for the obligation to observe Sunday ..... There is not a single sentence in the New Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the supposed sanctity of Sunday."

Why not?
Why were they gathered on Sunday?

I hate to ask hypothetical questions, but here goes:
Let's say that John the Apostle, who spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus, wrote plain as day, that the new day of Worship would be Sunday because of the resurrection. Would you accept that?

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
How is my personal obedience relevant to the changing of YHWH's Kadosh appointment with man?

Congregationalist Timothy Dwight- Theology: Explained and Defended (1823) " ....the Christian Sabbath [SUNday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath."

Because if you keep the Torah then you will of course keep the Sabbath and you should continue to do so.

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
These men acknowledge the rebellion against YHWH's word. Does their exposing it bother you?

First Day Observance, pp. 17, 19."The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change."

No. I just think you're doing what you're telling others not to do.

Ignatius the Kiwi · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
How is my personal obedience relevant to the changing of YHWH's Kadosh appointment with man?

Congregationalist Timothy Dwight- Theology: Explained and Defended (1823) " ....the Christian Sabbath [SUNday] is not in the Scriptures, and was not by the primitive Church called the Sabbath."

I'm wondering if you can at least acknowledge the rationale I provided for worship on the Lord's day in my earlier post. Just because it isn't explicitly biblical doesn't mean the practice is illegitimate or that it is in anyway contrary to Apostolic practice.

The New Testament you have, the Greek New testament and it's canon wasn't put together by any Judaism sect but instead by the Church you oppose and said innovated everything. On this basis I wonder why you even trust the New Testament as we have it. Yet obviously you trust the Church's tradition in this regard.

If you accept tradition in the case of one, what prohibits you from accepting it in the case of the other? Sunday worship is no way contrary to scripture. The only thing you could argue is that Sunday is not he sabbath and I and others are willing to agree with you there. The fact is it's better than the Sabbath because while God rested on the Sabbath, he redeemed us on the Lord's day.

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
These men acknowledge the rebellion against YHWH's word. Does their exposing it bother you?

First Day Observance, pp. 17, 19."The first day of the week is commonly called the Sabbath. This is a mistake. The Sabbath of the Bible was the day just preceding the first day of the week. The first day of the week is never called the Sabbath anywhere in the entire Scriptures. It is also an error to talk about the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. There is not in any place in the Bible any intimation of such a change."

Are these people you quote more important than the ECFs?

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
Why not?
Why were they gathered on Sunday?

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Paul imitated Yahshua, not the Sun worshipers.

Why would anyone gather on any weekday?

"The Sunday Problem"- United Lutheran Church (1923), "We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."

HARK! · May 2, 2020

GodsGrace101 said:
I hate to ask hypothetical questions, but here goes:
Let's say that John the Apostle, who spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus, wrote plain as day, that the new day of Worship would be Sunday because of the resurrection. Would you accept that?

Deuteronomy 13
CLV(i) 1 In case there arises a prophet or a dreamer of dreams among you, and he gives to you a sign or a miracle, 2 and the sign or the miracle comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying:Let us go after other elohim (whom you have not known), and let us serve them, 3 you shall not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams because Yahweh your Elohim is probing you to know whether you are loving Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 After Yahweh your Elohim shall you go, and Him shall you fear; His instructions shall you observe, and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve, and to Him shall you cling. 5 Then that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death because he spoke of defection from Yahweh your Elohim (the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt and the One ransoming you from the house of servants) so as to induce you from the way in which Yahweh your Elohim has instructed you to walk. Hence eradicate the evil from among you. 6 In case your brother, the son of your father, or the son of your mother or your son or your daughter or the wife of your bosom or your associate who is as your own soul should incite you in concealment, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known, you or your fathers, 7 of the elohim of the peoples who are around you, those near to you or those far from you, from one end of the land to the other end of the land). 8 neither shall you comply with him, nor shall you hearken to him; neither shall your eye commiserate over him, nor shall you spare him; and you shall not cover up for him. 9 For you shall kill, yea kill him. Your hand shall be among the first against him to put him to death, and the hand of all the people thereafter. 10 You will stone him with stones so that he dies, for he sought to induce you away from Yahweh your Elohim, the One bringing you forth from the country of Egypt, from the house of servants. 11 Thus all Israel shall hearken and fear, and they shall not again do anything like this evil thing among you. 12 In case you hear it said of one of your cities which Yahweh your Elohim is giving to you to dwell there, 13 that men, sons of decadence, have gone forth from among you and induced the dwellers of their city, saying:Let us go, and let us serve other elohim (whom you have not known), 14 then you will inquire, investigate and ask diligently. And behold, if the truth of the matter is being established that this abhorrence was done among you, 15 then you shall smite, yea smite the dwellers of that city with the edge of the sword. Doom it, all those who are in it and its domestic beasts, with the edge of the sword. 16 All its loot shall you get together to the middle of its square, and you will burn the city with fire and all its loot as a holocaust to Yahweh your Elohim. It will become an eonian barrow; it shall not be built again. 17 Nothing whatsoever shall cling to your hand from the doomed loot so that Yahweh may turn back from the heat of His anger and be compassionate to you. He will show you compassion and cause you to increase, just as He had sworn to your fathers, 18 provided that you shall hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim to observe all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, to do what is upright and good in the eyes of Yahweh your Elohim.

GodsGrace101 · May 2, 2020

HARK! said:
(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

Paul imitated Yahshua, not the Sun worshipers.

Why would anyone gather on any weekday?

"The Sunday Problem"- United Lutheran Church (1923), "We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."

Of course Paul imitated Christ...
as we are to do.

WHO are the sun worshippers?
The Romans?

I have no more time,,,but tomorrow I'd like to post some ECFs and the history of Sunday worship.

Not that it should make any difference to you.
I believe that God will judge us by the beliefs we hold in our heart if we can justify them.
(otherwise we'd be able to believe anything)

Changing Times.

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