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Changing Physical Constants Support YEC.

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busterdog

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If phyical constants change, it means that age-dating fossils, rocks and distant galaxies are no longer presumed to be accurate.

Since I am already at Defcon 1 in the origins forum generally, perhaps this club is a better forum to talk about some edgy ideas and learn a little. I need the challenge, but I don't need to hear that Barry Setterfield has no credentials, this is fairy tales, not science, yada, yada, yada.

One of the first problems with physical constants comes from Tom Von Flandern, who noted that atomic clocks were not keeping time with dynamic time, as measured by movements of the moon. From there, Barry Setterfield studies historic measurements of light speed and showed declining values. Mathematician Alan Montgomery reviewed the data and found the downward trends statitiscally significant and 95% to represent a real trend.

Oddly enough, a search of the forum did not hit for "Setterfield" or "Alan Montgomery". So here goes.

Setterfield interview: http://www.khouse.org/6640/BP078/

Dolphin Library of summary of implications for varying physical constants:

http://www.ldolphin.org/cdkconseq.html

Dolphin Library: http://www.ldolphin.org/constc.shtml

http://www.setterfield.org/

When we walk into a dark room, flip a switch and the light is instantly on, it seems that light has no speed but is somehow infinite - instantly there - and that was the majority opinion of scientists and philosophers until September 1676, when Danish astronomer Olaf Roemer announced to the Paris Academie des Sciences that the anomalous behavior of the eclipse times of Jupiter's inner moon, Io, could be accounted for by a finite speed of light. [2] His work and his report split the scientific community in half, involving strong opinions and discussions for the next fifty years. It was Bradley's independent confirmation of the finite speed of light, published January 1, 1729, which finally ended the opposition. [3] The speed of light was finite-incredibly fast, but finite.
The following question was: "Is the speed of light constant?" Interestingly enough, every time it was measured over the next few hundred years, it seemed to be a little slower than before. This could be explained away, as the first measurements were unbelievably rough compared to the technical accuracy later. It was not that simple, though. When the same person did the same test using the same equipment at a later period in time, the speed was slower. Not much, but slower.
These results kicked off a series of lively debates in the scientific community during the first half of the 20th century. Raymond Birge, highly respected chairman of the physics department at the University of California, Berkeley, had, from 1929 on, established himself as an arbiter of the values of atomic constants. [4] The speed of light is considered an atomic constant. However Birge's recommended values for the speed of light decreased steadily until 1940, when an article written by him, entitled "The General Physical Constants, as of August 1940 with details on the velocity of light only," appeared in Reports on Progress in Physics (Vol. 8, pp.90-100, 1941). Birge began the article saying: "This paper is being written on request - and at this time on request ... a belief in any significant variability of the constants of nature is fatal to the spirit of science, as science is now understood [emphasis his]." These words, from this man, for whatever reason he wrote them, shut down the debate on the speed of light. Birge had previously recognized, as had others, that if the speed of light was changing, it was quite necessary that some of the other "constants" were also changing. This was evidently not to be allowed, whether it was true or not, and so the values for the various constants were declared and that was that. Almost. In the October 1975 issue of Scientific American (p. 120), C.L. Strong questioned whether the speed of light might change with time "as science has failed to get a consistently accurate value." It was just a ripple, but the issue had not quite disappeared.
Partly in order to quell any further doubts about the constancy of the speed of light, in October 1983 the speed of light was declared a universal constant of nature, defined as 299,792.458 kilometers per second, which is often rounded off to the measurement we are more familiar with in the West as 186,000 miles per second.
Birge's paper was published in 1941. Just a year later, Barry Setterfield was born in Australia. In 1979 he was 37 years old. That year he received a book from a friend, a book on astronomical anomalies. It was a large book, and near the end of it there was a section on the speed of light, questioning its constancy. Barry was stunned. Nothing he had read or learned in physics or astronomy had even hinted that there was a question regarding the speed of light. It was a constant, wasn't it? As he read, he learned about the measurements that had been taken years before, and the arguments that had gone on in the scientific literature, and he was fascinated. He figured he could read up on it and wrap up the question in about two weeks; it didn't quite work out that way.
Within a couple of years, one of the creationist organizations had started publishing some of Barry's findings. They were still preliminary, but there was so much more to this than he had thought. In the following years his exploration continued, and he read all the literature he could find. His work caught the attention of a senior research physicist at Stanford Research Institute International (SRI), who then asked him to submit a paper regarding his research. It was to be a white paper, or one that was for the purposes of discussion within the Institute.
Barry teamed up with Trevor Norman of Flinders University in Adelaide, and in 1987 Flinders itself published their paper, "Atomic Constants, Light, and Time." Their math department had checked it and approved it and it was published with the Stanford Research Institute logo as well. What happened next was like something out of a badly written novel. Gerald Aardsma, a man at another creationist organization, got wind of the paper and got a copy of it. Having his own ax to grind on the subject of physics, he called the heads of both Flinders and SRI and asked them if they knew that Setterfield and Norman were [gasp] creationists! SRI was undergoing a massive staff change at the time and since the paper had been published by Flinders, they disavowed it and requested their logo be taken off. Flinders University threatened Trevor Norman with his job and informed Barry Setterfield that he was no longer welcome to use any resources there but the library. Aardsma then published a paper criticizing the Norman-Setterfield statistical use of the data. His paper went out under the auspices of a respected creation institution.
Under attack by both evolutionists and creationists for their work, Norman and Setterfield found themselves writing long articles of defense, which appeared in a number of issues of creation journals. In the meantime, Lambert Dolphin, the physicist at Stanford who had originally requested the paper, teamed up with professional statistician Alan Montgomery to take the proverbial fine-tooth comb through the Norman-Setterfield paper to check the statistics used. Their defense of the paper and the statistical use of the data was then published in a scientific journal, [5] and Montgomery went on to present a public defense at the 1994 International Creation Conference. Neither defense has ever been refuted in any journal or conference. Interestingly enough, later in 1987, after the Norman-Setterfield paper was published, another paper on light speed appeared, written by a Russian, V. S. Troitskii. [6] Troitskii not only postulated that the speed of light had not been constant, but that light speed had originally been about 1010 times faster than now.
Since then, a multitude of papers on cosmology and the speed of light have shown up in journals and on the web. The theories abound as to what is changing, and in relation to what, and what the possible effects are. There is one person who is continuing to work with the data, however. As the storm around the 1987 report settled down, Barry Setterfield got back to work, investigating the data rather than playing around with pure theory.
Meanwhile, halfway around the world from Australia, in Arizona, a respected astronomer named William Tifft was finding something strange going on with the redshift measurements of light from distant galaxies. It had been presumed that the shift toward the red end of the spectrum of light from these distant galaxies was due to a currently expanding universe, and the measurements should be seen as gradually but smoothly increasing as one went through space. That wasn't what Tifft was finding. The measurements weren't smooth. They jumped from one plateau to another. They were quantized, or came in quantities with distinct breaks in between them.
When Tifft published his findings, [7] astronomers were incredulous and dismissive. In the early 1990s in Scotland, two other astronomers decided to prove him wrong once and for all. Guthrie and Napier collected their own data and studied it. They ended up deciding Tifft was right. [8 ] What was going on? Barry Setterfield read the material and studied the data. The universe could not be expanding if the red shift measurements were quantized. Expansion would not occur in fits and starts. So what did the red shift mean? While most others were simply denying the Tifft findings, Barry took a closer look. And it all started to make sense. The data was showing where the truth of the matter was. While many articles continued to be published regarding theoretical cosmologies, with little regard for much of the data available, Barry was more interested in the data.
Yet, his work is not referenced by any of the others. The Stanford paper is just about forgotten, if it was ever known, by the folks in mainstream physics and astronomy. However, not only are the measurements still there, but the red shift data has added much more information, making it possible to calculate the speed of light back to the first moment of creation. So Barry wrote another paper and submitted it to a standard physics journal in 1999. They did not send it to peer review but returned it immediately, saying it was not a timely subject, was of no current interest, and was not substantial enough. (It was over fifty pages long with about a hundred and fifty references to standard physics papers and texts.) So Barry resubmitted it to an astronomy journal. They sent it out to peer review and the report came back that the paper was really interesting but that it really belonged in a physics journal. So, in 2000, he sent it off to another physics journal. They refused it because they did not like one of the references Barry used: a university text on physics. They also disagreed with the model of the atom that Barry used - the standard Bohr model. In August 2001, the paper was updated and submitted to a European peer-reviewed science journal. The editor has expressed interest. We will see what will happen. In the meantime everything continues: Barry Setterfield is giving presentations in different countries, the mainstream physicists and theorists are continuing to publish all manner of theoretical ideas, and the subject of the speed of light has erupted full force back into the scientific literature.
There is a reason that Barry's work is not being referenced by mainstream scientists - or even looked at by most. If Barry is right about what the data are indicating, we are living in a very young universe. This inevitable conclusion will never be accepted by standard science. Evolution requires billions of years.
And there is a reason why the major creation organizations are holding his work at an arm's length as well: they are sinking great amounts of money into trying to prove that radiometric dating procedures are fatally flawed. According to what Barry is seeing, however, they are not basically flawed at all: there is a very good reason why such old dates keep appearing in the test results. The rate of decay of radioactive elements is directly related to the speed of light. When the speed of light was higher, decay rates were faster, and the long ages would be expected to show up. As the speed of light slowed down, so the radioactive decay rates slowed down.
By assuming today's rate of decay has been uniform, the earth and universe look extremely old. Thus, the evolutionists are happy with the time that gives for evolution and the creationists are looking for flaws in the methods used for testing for dates. But if the rates of decay for the different elements have not been the same through time, then that throws both groups off! Here was an "atomic clock" which ran according to atomic processes and, possibly, a different "dynamical" clock, the one we use everyday, which is governed by gravity - the rotation and revolution rates of the earth and moon. Could it be that these two "clocks" were not measuring time the same way? A data analysis suggested this was indeed happening. Tom Van Flandern, with a Ph.D. from Yale in astronomy, specializing in celestial mechanics, and for twenty years (1963-1983) Research Astronomer and Chief of the Celestial Mechanics Branch at the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington D.C., released the results of some tests showing that the rate of ticking of the atomic clock was measurably slowing down when compared with the "dynamical clock." [9] (Tom Van Flandern was terminated from his work with that institution shortly thereafter, although his work carries a 1984 publication date.)
In recognizing this verified difference between the two different "clocks," it is important to realize that the entire dating system recognized by geology and science in general, saying that the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and the universe somewhere around ten billion years older than that, might be thrown into total disarray. The standard science models cannot deal with that. The standard creation models cannot, at this point, deal with the fact that radiometric dating may be, for the most part, telling the truth on the atomic clock. And, meanwhile, the Hubble spacecraft keeps sending back data which keep slipping into Barry Setterfield's model as though they actually belonged there.
* * *
 

busterdog

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Wow! That's an incredible read. Thanks so much for posting it. As a non-scientist I was riveted by what it said. :thumbsup:

Barry is my hero.

Listen to the Missler interview. Pretty cool.

Barry's wife used to be on Rapture Ready. It was fun to be communicating with this giant in the world of (heretical) science.

Barry is so completely dismissed by the mainstream, that this is study in and of itself. There was a really good paper by Montgomery on the mathematical analysis of this work. WHen the inquisition would come in to diss Barry, you could pound all day on the stats and never would the opposition concede the barest fig of an acknowledgment of interest. IT was all fairly tales to them.

ONe of the tests for a valid theory is whether it is so perfectly consistent that it would appear to be a tautology. Well, the critics of Setterfield roundly failed that test (haha, pun intended). Not the slightest bit of concession really provides evidence of what the guy represents, and that is a man who confounds the wisdom of the wise.

This theory really pounds conventional science, because it applies so broadly to every essential measure of age used against YEC. If true, all that is left for the non-YEC is to talk about dynamic processes that no one has witnessed over time. No one spends a million years watching a canyon form. So our experience is limited. Without a reliable speed of light, there are major problems for the big bang and aging of the universe by the supposed distances that light has travelled over the aeons to reach earth.

IF you get into the Setterfield site, you will also find some cool stuff about the flood. Look up "olivine" on that site. Cool stuff.
 
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keyarch

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If phyical constants change, it means that age-dating fossils, rocks and distant galaxies are no longer presumed to be accurate.
I just skimmed your post enough to want to make this statement:
With a Young Biological Creation model, the WHOLE Bible (with a literal Genesis) stays intact AND,
  • The Universe can be any age.
  • The minerals in earth with their corresponding isotopes can be any age.
  • As the minerals contaminate the fossils, they can date any age.
At the same time, there is no biology proven to be over 6,120 or so years old (created during 6 literal days) and one can hold to a global flood some 4,463 years ago.

So while all this scientific analysis is interesting, it’s not needed to prove that Scripture is true and becomes a diversion that can be immediately discarded as irrelevant.
 
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mark kennedy

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I'm still listening to the audios and it sounds like good stuff. The absolute clocks are not only not absolute they are down right unreliable. My thing is biology and they use molecular clocks in roughly the same way, the problem is that they are completly unreliable and give wildly different and magnificantly wrong dates.

I can't seem to follow the essay that you quoted from at such length. Believe me when I tell you I don't dismiss anyone for lack of credentials. I have been baited, condescended and lied to so much, by people with credentials, it's just a red flag anymore.

The question he seems to be dealing with is, is the earth old or young? I think he would say the answer is its both. It is relativly old but it got old a lot faster then we realize.

That's my take on it at any rate, I'll touch base again when I've listened to the other audios.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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busterdog

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At the same time, there is no biology proven to be over 6,120 or so years old (created during 6 literal days) and one can hold to a global flood some 4,463 years ago.

So while all this scientific analysis is interesting, it’s not needed to prove that Scripture is true and becomes a diversion that can be immediately discarded as irrelevant.

Same idea, I think:

The scientists may need to review their Sunday School lessons. What “mitochondrial Eve” and “Y-chromosome Adam” really represent are really statistical entities called the Most Recent Common Ancestor, or MRCA, meaning the last shared relative. As such, they exquisitely confirm the Biblical account. Since the males on the ark were Noah and his sons, all should have had identical Y-chromosomes. The four women, however (Mrs. Noah, Ham, Shem, and Japheth), ostensibly not related, would therefore trace their maternal lineages back to the Biblical Eve. The MRCA of the men, then, was Noah, but the MRCA of the maternal lineage was NOT Mrs. Noah, but Eve—who did (according to both science and the Bible) live considerably before her statistical counterpart, Noah.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2006/670/

Setterfield is not necessary to reconcile anything, really. The Bible is enough on its own. Its just what once the scientific genie is out of the bottle, there are many different types of places where it has to be addressed. I think this has much more to do with answering conventional science than proving the Bible.
 
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busterdog

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The question he seems to be dealing with is, is the earth old or young? I think he would say the answer is its both. It is relativly old but it got old a lot faster then we realize.

Setterfield is definitely young earth. There is a section on his web site describing his take on the geologic processes from leading up to and following the flood.

The following chart coordinates dynamic time (revolutions around the sun) versus changing atomic time:

Archaeozoic Era
Calendar years – 2256 years long (not including Ediacaran)​
Atomic years – (from Archean on) – 3.9 billion years long

At initial point of creation, light speed 6.25 x 1011 times current speed.
At the end of Creation Week, it was down to 340 million times its current speed
Catastrophe One: Noah’s Flood/ “Snowball Earth”/ axis tilt of earth

Atomic or Geologic years Geological Period Calendar, or orbital years before Christ Calendar, or orbital years after creation Biblical Events 14 - 8 billion Creation Week
5810
0
Creation Week,
Note 1
8 - 4.57 billion Unnamed 5810 - 5344 0 - 466
Adam to Enos,
Note 2
4.57 - 3.8 billion Hadean 5344-5114 466-696
Enos to Cainaan
3.8-2.5 billion
Archean 5114 - 4594 696 - 1216
Cainaan to Enoch ,
Note 3
2.5-0.9 billion early Proterozoic 4594 - 3677 1216 - 2133
Enoch to Noah
Note 4
900-600 million
Cryogenian 3677-3460 2133-2350
Birth of Shem to Flood
Note 5
Catastrophe 1
730 million

"Snowball Earth" 3554 2256
Noah's Flood
600-542 million Ediacaran 3460-3418 2350-2392
Shem to Arphaxad
At the the time of the Flood, light speed was about 1.38 million times its current speed.
* * *​
Notes:
1. First stars formed on Day One (Job 38:7). These Population II stars are in the centers and halos of galaxies. Earth’s ocean degassed on Day One (Job 38:8). Process precipitates thousands of meters of clays and bedded ores. The landmass upthrust as one super-continent which occurred on Day 3, as told in Genesis 1. Population I stars, such as our sun, started shining on Day Four. Atomically (geologically) the six full days of Creation Week lasted from 14 billion to about 8 billion years ago. This incredibly rapid drop is reflected in the redshift curve.​
2. Rapid radioactive heating by short and long-half-lived elements simultaneously occurs in the mantle and core. The resulting heat and pressure drive water from hydrated minerals that comprised the mantle towards the surface to appear as springs and geysers, as mentioned in Genesis 2:6.
3. The internal heating of the earth continued. This process initially caused some sodium rich granites to be intruded near the surface. That resulted in some metamorphosed basement rocks which formed the stable shield, or craton, areas on the earth’s surface. Zircon grains and the earliest stromatolite fossils from this time indicate shallow, warm waters in a number of areas.

4. Noah is born 4154 BC, in the Early Proterozoic era. Increased internal pressures and heat caused the earlier ‘mists’ or ‘streams’ of Genesis 2 to appear more like the ‘fountains’ mentioned in Genesis 7 which, at the onset of the Flood, all burst out at once. Some regions adjacent to the shield areas started to downwarp, and the flow of chemically rich water from the earth’s interior resulted in the distinct sedimentary deposits in these regions.

5. The Archaeozoic Era ended in massive tectonism with half our present ocean outgassed from the interior. Crustal rifting formed the ‘tectonic plates’, and the incipient mid-ocean ridges. Sediments were swept off the top of the shield (craton) areas and into troughs, which later stabilized. It is important to note that the ‘fountains of the deep’ which burst forth at this time were not randomly scattered across the earth, but primarily marked the incipient crustal plate boundaries and other specific areas of crustal weakness. This enabled a good part of the central sea area, which we now recognize as our central Pacific Ocean, to remain relatively calm during the land inundation going on, on the other side of the world. For this reason, floating vegetation mats were able to ride out the year, harboring a variety of insects and amphibians on them, precisely the way much smaller vegetation mats still do today after fierce storms in the Far East and the South Pacific.
Noah’s Deluge. Its beginning corresponds to the Diamictite—or rubble – layer (about 300 meters thick) which is often seen by evolutionists and long-age believers as being evidence of a past ‘snowball earth’. Refutation for this position along with more details may be found in the Snowball Earth? article. The Flood itself did not fossilize anything, but rather left a carbon-rich sedimentary layer above this diamictite strata of about 2.5 kilometers of thickness almost everywhere around the world. This is exactly what would be expected of erupting, boiling hot waters and the pulverized materials they were shooting up with them. Living material would have been scalded, dismembered, chemically disintegrated, and rotted through the year of the Deluge
 
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HSetterfield

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That's very kind of you, Busterdog, and thank you!

In the main, what Barry has done is to put together the data and discussions from the peer-reviewed scientific press and simply said (in a few more words, with math attached) "See? Look where this leads..."

The data lead to a necessarily very young universe. There is honestly no way around it in either physics or astronomy. They are trying to invent dark mass, dark energy, etc., to get around the problems they are encountering with an old universe. None of these inventions or imaginations are necessary with a young universe.

But that sure doesn't give enough time for evolution!
 
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Floodnut

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I want the Setterfields to help me with the Flood Film Project.
What place does a cosmic event have in the Flood? Could there have been a near miss of a large object? During the flood year is the most logical time for the formation of the many craters on the earth and moon, and is it not likely that there were many impact at or about the time of the Flood?
Chat with me on Yahoo Instant Messenger where my id is Floodnut480
 
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