Changing O.T. Family Struture. Polygamy/Monogamy?

[Charlesinflorida]

This thought grew out of the thread on dealing with Homosexuals. It sems to me that the human family role has undergone some pretty serious changes since the time of Yeshua. There have been complete role reversals in some cases. I think that perhaps we as a species have created social pressures on ourselves that frustrate our ability to obtain a normal and fulfilling life in many areas. Could this be a root cause of things like homosexuality, sexual violence broken families and other modern manifestations of social ill ?


Humans are part of the animal Kingdom created by God. In this fleshy animal group we see the predominate pattern is toward poligamy. This is something that was practiced in Judaism until perhaps the second temple period. Men seem to have more overall sexual iniative (capacity?). Women seem to enjoy having a helper, another woman to stand with them in the overwhelming duties of childrearing and domestic responsibilities, things that may not be provided by a male who worked outside the home. (I am trying to place this in a mode that fits a vast period of time for example more primative man, the males hunted together and ranged farther from home perhaps for days at a time, and women burdened with children to protect stayed closer together in the camp.)

Now having set the idea up, my question is; could changing gender roles, replacing polygamy with monogamy and puritanistic ideals, be causing unnatural pressure on people to redirect what is a natural God given sexuality/relationship/family/ formula? Could the Old Testament model which was poligimus, clan based, and appearantly very successful, have been the correct structure for mankind?

Charles in Florida

 

[enoch son]

I'm not should what your getting at. But show me were God told man to have more then one women?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

ES,
Where does God say that man is to have only one wife?
It seems that Most of the O.T. saints had more than one and the Lord blessed them and never finds fault with this.

Charles in Florida

 

[RhetorTheo]

Charles,

Jesus said that if you divorce your wife, in God's eyes you are still married in God's eyes and if you marry again you are committing adultery.

If polygamy were allowed, then Jesus would have said that if you divorce and marry again, you have two wives in God's eyes. He didn't. He said you are committing adultery with the new "wife" because you are still married to the first wife.

 

[TheScottsMen]

God created Adam, he took Eve from Adams body. This is natural order. Where did God create Nancy, Sarah, Raquel and Mary to also be Adams help mate? When one is Born Again, one receives a new nature. I have one wife, should lust rule my body and my mind to take another? God forbid! I am to treat my wife as Christ treated his church.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Charles,

Jesus said that if you divorce your wife, in God's eyes you are still married in God's eyes and if you marry again you are committing adultery.

If polygamy were allowed, then Jesus would have said that if you divorce and marry again, you have two wives in God's eyes. He didn't. He said you are committing adultery with the new "wife" because you are still married to the first wife.

Hmmm. Yes I see what you are saying. But I believe that Yeshua was really speaking about the eternal nature of covenant, in this case the marriage covenant and not offering a teaching concerning monogamy.

Charles in Florida

 

[Charlesinflorida]

God created Adam, he took Eve from Adams body. This is natural order. Where did God create Nancy, Sarah, Raquel and Mary to also be Adams help mate? When one is Born Again, one receives a new nature. I have one wife, should lust rule my body and my mind to take another? God forbid! I am to treat my wife as Christ treated his church.

Eve was created from Adam, but this is not the "natural order" for mankind. It was a one time event. Having more than one wife is not really a lust issue. Might a man love all of his wives. Consider the many examples of scripture.

Charles in Florida

 

[TheScottsMen]

Are you married? If so, would u want your wife to have many husbands?

 

[TheScottsMen]

It has been from the time of Adam and Eve it has been God's will that each man should have his own wife and that each woman should have her own husband. When God brought the Woman, whom He had created, to Adam, Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his WIFE: and they shall be one flesh" (Gen.2: 23, 24).

Because man departed from God's original law of one wife for one husband, should we be followers of fault? In the fifth generation from Cain, who killed his righteous brother Abel, God's word informs us of the first polygamist: "And lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah" (Gen. 4:19).

The faithful man Abraham was somewhat innocently led into polygamy by his doubting wife Sarah(Gen. 16: 3). By this unlawful union of Abraham with his handmaid was born Ishmael who became "As a wild *** among men; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him"(Gen. 16: 12). Nothing less than the final judgement can measure the enormity of the sin which brought Ismael into the world. It is true that God forgive Abraham because he was largely righteous, as he did others who sinned in polygamy; however, it was God's will from the beginning of marriage in the Garden of Eden that there be but one wife for each husband. As we come to understand God's law of marriage under Christ, Christ upholds the marriage law that was instituted in paradise.

While Jesus was on earth the Pharisees came to him asking, "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?" Jesus replied: "Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become on flesh? What therefore God hath joined together let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why then did Moses Command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so"(Matt. 19: 3-8).

From the foregoing, Jesus admits that the putting away of one's wife under Moses was permitted because of the people's hardness of heart, but, He says, "From the beginning it hath not been so"-from the time God ordained marriage in the garden of Eden. In addition Jesus stated: "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery"(Matt. 19: 9).

When we turn the letters the Apostles wrote - and the Holy Spirit directed them into all truth - we find them likewise enforcing God's original law of one husband and wife. In the letter to the church at Corinth, Paul rebuked one of its members for taking his father's wife, and he said, "Purge out the old leaven that ye may be a new lump........"(1 Cor. 5: 1-3). And to the same church he later said, "But, because of fornication, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband"(1 Cor. 7:2).

Notice, Paul did not say let each man have his own wives, but rather, "Let each man have his own WIFE".

In the letter to the Ephesians Paul wrote, "For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself up for it (Eph. 5: 23-25). Again, notice, the husband is the head of the wife, and not wives. Likewise the same lesson is repeated to the Colossians: "Wives, be in subjection to your husbands, as is fitting in the lord. Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them"(Col. 3: 18, 19).

Let us turn now the Divine organization of the local churches, and see adherence to this same truth, one husband and one wife, enjoined upon truth, one husband and one wife, and deacons. Says the apostle, "The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of ONE WIFE "(1 Tim. 3: 2). Further he says, "Let deacons be husbands of ONE WIFE, ruling their own children and their own houses well"(1 Tim. 3: 2). Paul knew very well that if the elders and deacons did not live with one wife each, then the membership would follow their evil examples of polygamy. Any local church always looks to its elders and deacons to set the worthy examples of one husband and wife. By so doing, the membership will be led in the right way. Pauls instructions were simple. Let not let your theology interpret the scripture but the other way around.

1. Polygamy destroys true love of the husband for his wife. This is the testimony of polygamists themselves.
2. Polygamy destroys the peace of a Christian home. In a polygamous home there is jealousy, strife and division. Often the husband has to leave the house to find peace.

3. Christian homes are the strength of a nation. Polygamy destroys Christian homes thus ultimately a nation. Even political leaders often understand this truth and seek to pass laws forbidding polygamy.

1. True love of a husband for his wife can be established in monogamy. Monogamy is in harmony with nature's law.

2. The peace of a Christian home may be enjoyed only in monogamy.

3. It is only the Christian home wherein God is able to direct and save each member from the worldly lusts that produce polygamy.

"What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder".

 

[Charlesinflorida]

All Good points I agree. Although I will comment that the instruction in the New testament concerning bishops ect. Is that in order to be a leader of a congregation it is required that a man be a family man, Married, and not divorced and remarried. The appeal is for men who were stable and proven. The issue again is not monogomy.

Now accepting your general points, why then is there so much divorce, and adultry in the church. What is lacking, missing, or pressuring Christian marriages to failure.

In answer to your question, Yes I am married. Same woman for 34 years. And NO, I would not want to share her. But we were raised in America under a monogomous system and not mentally prepared for anything else. What of the Patriarchs, God never convicts them of sin or error. It really seems that the only time polygomy is a problem, is when the Hebrews begin taking foreign wives. Because they bring in foreign gods. In the case of Abraham, again Polygomy is not the issue. The problem was that they tried to fulfill in the flesh what God had promised to accomplish through faith, by the promise to Abram and Sarai. David had several hundred wives and many more concubines, but this was not his sin. His sin was wanting the one that was already married and arranging the death of her husband in order to take her, murder.

Charles in Florida

 

[TheScottsMen]

I disagree entirely and stand by my statement.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

ScottsMen,

I am not trying to change your mind. I for the most part agree with you. I am investigating and that requires asking different questions.

I think that Homosexuality is not all sexual in nature but has other root issues mostly dealing with an inability of a person to find fulillment in or through normative relationships. There can be a multitue of causes for this; parental abuse, childhood trauma, social pressures, all the way to the other end of the spectrum, like demonic interference. At this point I am only looking at failure in normative male female relationships.

In a monogomous relationship we put a lot of demands on one another, for emotional support, comfort, nurchuring, balance, intellectual stimulation,as well as sexual fulfillment. (sex being one of the lesser issues for most in a given 24 hr. day.) It is difficult for a spouse to be all things all the time. If we add to that the assumed social pressures of western society with its demands for financial status,wealth, security, and such we end up with families where both husband and wife usually work outside the home, and child rearing and personal support issues become the second order of business, and the failure rate is almost 50% during the first five years. This is a Christian nation.

In pre-industrial polygamous families and with clan based groups, where the elderly remained an important part of the family unit until death rather than being stored in an extended care facility or some sort, there were all sorts of secondary and redundant support mechanisms present. No one person had to be all things to someone else. You had options.

Now at first it seems impossible to love more than one spouse and not to have conflicts of astounding proportions. Yet we have more than one child and manage to love them all. We might love different things about each child or love them differently, or express our love differently to each of them according to their own temperments, but we do successfully love them all. Is this an impossible thing where there is more than one wife? Why did it work so well for so many centuries and now it seems impossible. Yet marriages in those more ancient societies seem to have been more sucessful than the monogomous marriages of today.

This is a completely different side note but I throw it out as additional information.
Statistically Jewish people have, fewer divorces, longer lasting marriages,and the ills of drug/alchohol abuse and felony crimes are almost non-existant. There must be something different taking place in those Jewish homes. Additionally Jews are per-capita more charitable than any group of people, and produce by percentage more bright minds (science, doctors, engineers, teachers, ect) than any other group. Obviously Gods hand has always been upon them that this should be true in the face of such a history of persecutions. So what do they know that christians have not discovered?

Charles in Florida

 

[TheScottsMen]

As I do not have a whole lot of time this evening to respond,I will be fast! I agree with you on that family breakdown of the United States. We look more like Rome did before it fell (though, I disagree with many that USA is in Prophecy, haha). Sometimes I wonder how much of this country is really Christian? I know hundreds of people that claim to be Christian and yet live very non-Christian lives and do very unchristian things each and everyday. Many so called Christians are Christians because they call themselves that but have know idea what it really means. My opinion is the USA is not a Christian nation and I know for sure many will disagree with me. When Christ comes back and puts his foot down, then and only then will we see a Christian nation. Right now we simply choose between the lesser of two evils in this country. Also on a side note! My family is Christian. Going back 8 geneartions we have not had a divorce or a seperation.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

The ills of the Christian faith run much deeper than just the U.S. If we are in the end times as many of us believe, then it is expected. The church of the last days is apostate, fallen from sound doctrine, lovers of money rather than lovers of God, it is cold, indifferent, compromised and weak. All the descriptors of the end times church is prevalent today.

Much of the problem in the Church stems from the fact that it is a church of tradition rather than having a foundation in God's word, (The Tanahk/Old Testament) the diversity of denominations and doctrines is proof of the lack of any true Godly standard. We were given a standard, and instructions from God which were repunctuated by Yeshua. IT is called Torah, Gods teaching. This is the standard, a fixed immovable anchor point. The church is not tied to it. It has cut itself loose and floats about on sea anchors of public opinion, and concenses and false doctrine most of which has its roots in Greeco-Roman Paganism.

It needs deliverance.

It is good that your family has been so stable. It is an exception and not the rule. My family also has been stable in my line, however I can not document my family beyond 4 generations.

Charles in Florida

 

[LynneClomina]

Humans are part of the animal Kingdom created by God. In this fleshy animal group we see the predominate pattern is toward poligamy.

I AM NOT AN ANIMAL. that stems from an evolutionary world-view. God gave us dominion over the animals, not each other. animals are below us.

Now having set the idea up, my question is; could changing gender roles, replacing polygamy with monogamy and puritanistic ideals, be causing unnatural pressure on people to redirect what is a natural God given sexuality/relationship/family/ formula? Could the Old Testament model which was poligimus, clan based, and appearantly very successful, have been the correct structure for mankind?

Charles in Florida

no, polygamy was not the correct structure for mankind if God changed it. in the OT they did not have the benefit of the instruction of the Holy Spirit. there are many things that they did that Jesus later taught against. the OT must be interpreted in the light of the Cross... having many wives that faught and conspired and had jealousies, etc, is not LOVE. but without the Holy Spirit they couldnt understand that. so God had grace upon them in their ignorance. but know we know better.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I AM NOT AN ANIMAL. that stems from an evolutionary world-view. God gave us dominion over the animals, not each other. animals are below us.

Then are you perhaps a plant, or a mineral? We hold certain commonality with all animals.



no, polygamy was not the correct structure for mankind if God changed it. in the OT they did not have the benefit of the instruction of the Holy Spirit. there are many things that they did that Jesus later taught against. the OT must be interpreted in the light of the Cross... having many wives that faught and conspired and had jealousies, etc, is not LOVE. but without the Holy Spirit they couldnt understand that. so God had grace upon them in their ignorance. but know we know better.

God established a set of instructions for his creation of man. It is called Torah, the Books of Moshe. This is the "Owners manual" that each new human being comes with. If was writen on stone before the spirit and is writen on our hearts now by the spirit. Nowhere in this word of God is there a ruling or prohabition against the practice. It seemed to be quite beneficial and successful for several Millennia. I don't see where God changed it through Jesus. It was a practice already on the wane by that time.
Charles in Florida