Changing Doctrines?

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Change Catholic teaching to make death penalty 'inadmissible', says Pope

Therefore it can be concluded that if a change in official catholic doctrine on the matter is necessary then in times past the official catholic doctrine on the matter must have been pro- death penalty..

From this we can conclude that if the former catholic authority was infallible in it's declaration that the death penalty is acceptable and the modern catholic infallible Authority now declares the death penalty to be unacceptable..

How can both the past catholic Authority and the modern catholic Authority both be infallible when they are in disagreement over the same issue...

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Change Catholic teaching to make death penalty 'inadmissible', says Pope

Therefore it can be concluded that if a change in official catholic doctrine on the matter is necessary then in times past the official catholic doctrine on the matter must have been pro- death penalty..

From this we can conclude that if the former catholic authority was infallible in it's declaration that the death penalty is acceptable and the modern catholic infallible Authority now declares the death penalty to be unacceptable..

How can both the past catholic Authority and the modern catholic Authority both be infallible when they are in disagreement over the same issue...

That's because it's an organic structure, since a protestant pastor is like a mini pope, this is like taking sermons from a pastor's youth and comparing them to sermons later on and asking why he contradicts himself and questioning his authority on this basis. just saying ...
.
If the catholic church is taking the lead of Jesus regarding the death penalty, then this would be a good thing?

 

[paul1149]

How can both the past catholic Authority and the modern catholic Authority both be infallible

Neither of the policies are infallible. The RCC was just holding forth based on the light they believed they had, and that light can change. To be infallible requires a certain procedural standard. Whether we think the popes' statements are biblically sound is another matter.

since a protestant pastor is like a mini pope

This I would disagree with, quite adamantly.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Neither of the policies are infallible. The RCC was just holding forth based on the light they believed they had, and that light can change. To be infallible requires a certain procedural standard. Whether we think the popes' statements are biblically sound is another matter.

This is looking at it from the wrong angle for sure. If I look at a monkey and say it is deformed because it doesn't behave like a duck, I'm not going to ever be pleased. In the same way, protestant thinking cannot be used (effectively) to analyze catholic patterns.

Furthermore, if another 1000 years pass and your tradition is still around, maybe this will make a little more sense.

This I would disagree with, quite adamantly.

That's okay, it still quacks like a duck to me.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

That's because it's an organic structure, since a protestant pastor is like a mini pope, this is like taking sermons from a pastor's youth and comparing them to sermons later on and asking why he contradicts himself and questioning his authority on this basis. just saying ...

If you find a protestant pastor who thinks he's a mini-pope, then he needs to be thrown out of the church. There's no comparing the two. No good pastor claims infallibility. I don't expect infallibility from the Pope, so I'm not surprised that he could change Catholic positions so readily, but if he wants to claim infallibility, then it puts him in the sticky position of having to be 100% correct on every single one of his infallible papal decrees. Of course, that's indefensible. Infallibility is indefensible in every case, because it would require not only something genuinely infallible to defend, but someone infallible to defend it. Neither of those things exist among human company.

If the catholic church is taking the lead of Jesus regarding the death penalty, then this would be a good thing?

By, "taking the lead," I assume you refer to the Pericope Adulterae. I assume that the story really happened, but it was most certainly an inclusion. It was not originally in the text, at least not in that position, and the writing style does not match that time period. I like to think that the divine hand of God is what put it there, but being that it's the only text in the Bible suggesting God's negative view on the death penalty, I'm not willing to base such a position on that passage alone. God, himself, instated the death penalty in so many cases that one suspect passage seems insufficient to make such a broad case against it.

Good thing or not, the question in the OP has little to do with the virtue of the death penalty and everything to do with two "infallible" decrees contradicting each other directly.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you find a protestant pastor who thinks he's a mini-pope, then he needs to be thrown out of the church. There's no comparing the two. No good pastor claims infallibility. I don't expect infallibility from the Pope, so I'm not surprised that he could change Catholic positions so readily, but if he wants to claim infallibility, then it puts him in the sticky position of having to be 100% correct on every single one of his infallible papal decrees. Of course, that's indefensible. Infallibility is indefensible in every case, because it would require not only something genuinely infallible to defend, but someone infallible to defend it. Neither of those things exist among human company.



By, "taking the lead," I assume you refer to the Pericope Adulterae. I assume that the story really happened, but it was most certainly an inclusion. It was not originally in the text, at least not in that position, and the writing style does not match that time period. I like to think that the divine hand of God is what put it there, but being that it's the only text in the Bible suggesting God's negative view on the death penalty, I'm not willing to base such a position on that passage alone. God, himself, instated the death penalty in so many cases that one suspect passage seems insufficient to make such a broad case against it.

Good thing or not, the question in the OP has little to do with the virtue of the death penalty and everything to do with two "infallible" decrees contradicting each other directly.

Well, if you're debating that an event included is in the canon doesn't belong there, this kind of falls outside the scope of General Theology.

Colossians 2 also speaks of ordinances being removed so we could be saved, our salvation is possible because the death penalty elements of the Old Testament law was fulfilled when Jesus died in our place. To seek to return to the old testament way of doing things after Jesus did what he did, is kind of like saying, Thanks Jesus, but we'll take it from here.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Catholic Church is amazingly adept at contradicting itself. When it happens, which, if you were to believe Catholic propaganda, actually can't happen, the previous doctrine gets neatly tossed into the dustbin of the Vatican and ignored as if it had never existed. If, and when, its existence is pointed out by heretics such as the OP, then the spinning starts in which it is claimed that the previous doctrine was really not a doctrine at all and the Pope really didn't mean what he actually stated.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Protestant Church is amazingly adept at contradicting itself through many denominations, and claiming to be part of one church at the same time. So I was being fair and giving the same consideration to the Catholics that I do to the Protestants.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Protestant Church is amazingly adept at contradicting itself through many denominations, and claiming to be part of one church at the same time. So I was being fair and giving the same consideration to the Catholics that I do to the Protestants.

That is a very interesting assumption - that there is a denomination known as The Protestant Church. I have searched for information regarding this particular denomination on the internet and have found nothing. To be sure, there is plenty about Protestantism as a historical movement and the Protestant Reformation, but I cannot find a thing about this denomination called The Protestant Church. Perhaps you could help me.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That is a very interesting assumption - that there is a denomination known as The Protestant Church. I have searched for information regarding this particular denomination on the internet and have found nothing. To be sure, there is plenty about Protestantism as a historical movement and the Protestant Reformation, but I cannot find a thing about this denomination called The Protestant Church. Perhaps you could help me.

Fish cannot see they are in water, and so it is with the protestant church. An apple does not fall far from the Catholic tree I guess.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q: "Changing Doctrines? (on the USA death penalty?).

A: The Bible justifies the " death penalty ".

IMO the Bible supports the "Death Penalty" as carefully legislated in the USA.
However, here it is little deterent to crazed psychopathic and premeditated killers.

Murder is a named sin.

Exodus 20:13 ....“You shall not murder.

Matthew 19:18...And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder,...

Romans 13 (NASB)...Be Subject to Government
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities...
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good.
But if you do what is evil, be afraid;
for it does not bear the sword (of execution!) for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

OP: Q: "Changing Doctrines? (on the USA death penalty?).

A: The Bible justifies the " death penalty ".

IMO the Bible supports the "Death Penalty" as carefully legislated in the USA.
However, here it is little deterent to crazed psychopathic and premeditated killers.

Murder is a named sin.

Exodus 20:13 ....“You shall not murder.

Matthew 19:18...And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder,...

Romans 13 (NASB)...Be Subject to Government
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities...
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good.
But if you do what is evil, be afraid;
for it does not bear the sword (of execution!) for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

The biblical context associates the sword with war, not execution.

Since execution as symbolized by stoning or crucifixion in the biblical record, that interpretation is incorrect.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Question:
Does it glorify God to execute the death penalty in the USA today?
A: Yes. He uses our just and fair government and society to execute His judgment for wrath present in both the OT and NT.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

Romans 12:19
Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30
For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

 

[thecolorsblend]

I think some of you are getting lost in the weeds. The Catholic Church has historically viewed the death penalty as a just action for the state (any state) to administer.

Right now, when it comes to America there is real controversy about how fairly and justly applied the death penalty has been. That is what the pope is responding to.

As it happens, I don't think that I completely agree with him either.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Oh, as to Protestant pastors being like mini-popes, I don't think I agree with that either.

With Protestant pastors, there's no real expectation that the faithful submit to his authority, his doctrinal statements may or may not be in continuity with what his ecclesial community has taught in the past and, apart from a sheepskin from "Bible college", there's probably little or nothing that separates a Protestant pastor, his doctrinal opinions or his life from his congregants.

So I don't think they quite measure up to Pope.