Changing beliefs

[PsychoSarah]

Physical causes that create and shape our genes and our environmental upbringing, particularly the social aspect of it.

Determinism doesn't require intelligence. It simply states:

Given a situation, there is only one possible outcome.

I flip a coin, there are two possible outcomes (unless you honestly think it is going to land on its edge).

 

[Chany]

I flip a coin, there are two possible outcomes (unless you honestly think it is going to land on its edge).

There are two "apparent" or "possible" outcomes.

In reality, things like wind, the initial placement of the coin in the hand, the amount of pressure placed in the physical flip, the amount of time until the drop, the coin's reaction to the surface it hits, etc. determine where the coin will land. The only reason it is "possible" the coin will land on either side is that we cannot account for and/or control every single variable and mathematically work out the outcome.

 

[PsychoSarah]

There are two "apparent" or "possible" outcomes.

In reality, things like wind, the initial placement of the coin in the hand, the amount of pressure placed in the physical flip, the amount of time until the drop, the coin's reaction to the surface it hits, etc. determine where the coin will land. The only reason it is "possible" the coin will land on either side is that we cannot account for and/or control every single variable and mathematically work out the outcome.

Certainly, as the variables of the event become more and more set in place the likelihood of it being heads or tails is less pure "chance". But that only accounts for after I pick it up. Someone else could flip the coin, perhaps I drop it by mistake.

 

[Chany]

Certainly, as the variables of the event become more and more set in place the likelihood of it being heads or tails is less pure "chance". But that only accounts for after I pick it up. Someone else could flip the coin, perhaps I drop it by mistake.

You're simply changing the variables involved. My point still stands, as it holds true regardless of who flips the coin or how or when or where.

 

[PsychoSarah]

You're simply changing the variables involved. My point still stands, as it holds true regardless of who flips the coin or how or when or where.

Theoretically, what would happen if someone "broke" predestination and did something they weren't "meant" to do?

 

[Chany]

Theoretically, what would happen if someone "broke" predestination and did something they weren't "meant" to do?

Predestination is a theological term used to describe how something fated things to happened. It implies that something exists to predetermine outcomes.

There is no intelligence controlling and deciding the outcome in determinism. There is no "meant" because meant implies that something was supposed to happen by design, which is not what I am arguing.

I would need to think about it, but to give a answer to promote discussion: the statement is an oxymoron. It is impossible to "break" out of determinism.

(On a side note, it is impossible to predict the future with 100 percent accuracy since we cannot measure the behavior and position of particles. I may have gotten it wrong as I'm not a physics guy.)

 

[PsychoSarah]

Predestination is a theological term used to describe how something fated things to happened. It implies that something exists to predetermine outcomes.

There is no intelligence controlling and deciding the outcome in determinism. There is no "meant" because meant implies that something was supposed to happen by design, which is not what I am arguing.

I would need to think about it, but to give a answer to promote discussion: the statement is an oxymoron. It is impossible to "break" out of determinism.

(On a side note, it is impossible to predict the future with 100 percent accuracy since we cannot measure the behavior and position of particles. I may have gotten it wrong as I'm not a physics guy.)

Considering all of that, is there really any difference to our lives if they are predestined or not? It doesn't seem like we should care.

 

[Chany]

Considering all of that, is there really any difference to our lives if they are predestined or not? It doesn't seem like we should care.

If we are not the origin of our actions and thoughts, we cannot be held morally/personally responsible for any action, as we would have done it no matter what. Punishment for the sake of retribution is pointless and unfair; punishment is only useful as a psychological deterrent to future behavior. The notion of justice of society needs to be realigned to this reality.

That's the main big one.

 

[selfinflikted]

I was once a creationist and have since given that up in light of evidence. So lump me into that category as well.

 

[AV1611VET]

I was once a creationist and have since given that up in light of evidence. So lump me into that category as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a perfect example of Paul's warning in Romans 1.

You were a Christian at one time.

Then you accepted evolution.

Then you considered yourself a "wise man".

Now you're an atheist.

Is that about the size of it?

 

[selfinflikted]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're a perfect example of Paul's warning in Romans 1.

You were a Christian at one time.

Then you accepted evolution.

Then you considered yourself a "wise man".

Now you're an atheist.

Is that about the size of it?

Close. Leave out the "wise man" part, and you've basically nailed it.

It's funny: You know how it is when you're 18-25'ish and you think you know everything. But in the past few years I realize - the older I get, the less I know.

Funny how that works.

 

[AV1611VET]

Leave out the "wise man" part, and you've basically nailed it.

You didn't consider yourself a "Homo sapiens"?

That's one of Linnaeus' biggest mistakes.

(Or whoever coined that phrase.)

 

[selfinflikted]

I've always considered myself a homo sapiens.

 

[juvenissun]

A very long time indeed. >10,000 years. Which means YEC cannot stand.

How about 100,000 years? It would still be a young, in fact, a very young earth.

 

[juvenissun]

Based on a couple hundred years of watching how rocks form and deposition happens such an alternative hypothesis is far, far less likely.

It is not impossible, of course, but when the alternative hypothesis has at its foundation a "need" to exist in order to align the words of a book of unknown authorship by a people not known for their technical advances but which reads almost exactly like any allegorical myth in countless OTHER ancient societies, then it makes the alternative hypothesis (as yet undiscovered) even less likely.

Why is it necessary to assume that nothing is as it seems? Well, obviously all we know and experience cannot be true when someone demands that a given allegory MUST be literally true.

It is not necessary (of course not), except there is a need to do that.

What is the need? A much better understanding which can answer more questions.

 

[juvenissun]

I would like to know how to explain antibiotic resistance and the twin nested hierarchy in an evidence based way that does not involve evolution.

That might have a considerable impact on my beliefs on evolution.

Dizredux

I am not a biologist. So basically I don't know.
However, I can give a logic answer:

The bacteria changed its body chemistry so that the antibiotics will not react to the bacteria any more.

You may say: AHA, that is evolution.

I would say: If that is evolution, then the earth itself is evolving. The sun is also evolving. Accept that?

(I have made this argument many times. Hope I haven't done that to you before. But if I did, what is your response then? )

 

[juvenissun]

I got a question. How long does the glorify thing last? Apparently it has to be a repeated, (glorify again), process.

Also, what does 'glorify' mean, exactly?

(okay, that was 2 questions, i know )

I think you stole my question. Do you?

 

[juvenissun]

I was once a creationist and have since given that up in light of evidence. So lump me into that category as well.

What evidence? I will try to make you doubt on that evidence again. Dare to try?

 

[lesliedellow]

I am not a biologist. So basically I don't know.
However, I can give a logic answer:

The bacteria changed its body chemistry so that the antibiotics will not react to the bacteria any more.

You may say: AHA, that is evolution.

I would say: If that is evolution, then the earth itself is evolving. The sun is also evolving. Accept that?

If you want to use that sort of language, the Sun is evolving into a white dwarf. Playing with words doesn't really prove anything.

 

[selfinflikted]

What evidence? I will try to make you doubt on that evidence again. Dare to try?

I can usually barely understand your posts. But you're welcome to try.