changed life of pagans

[lamb7]

I know many know of the changes life doctrine to prove one is saved.
I dont hold to that strictly but do think some changes happen. I don't have a rule for it but I think there is some change.
We are not or never will be sinless.

What got me thinking is those who hold to the works and outside rightouness people can observe.

I've heard and even known pagans to have more self control, love, overcome addictions and other obstacles without Christ. On the flip side I've met many more Christian's who dont overcome an addiction, still struggle with sins but trust on Christ.

So we can't use the actions of people always to be a test of their faith or salvation.

My next thought is how do we know some of our overcoming isn't just us and our so called will power?

Just been chewing on this.



What do you think? Have you ever encountered this?

Please keep it friendly no nasty debates.

 

[Ripheus27]

It could be that Christ subconsciously works in them, couldn't it? (I know someone that this happened with.)

 

[Godcrazy]

Of course are pagans and others capable of being loving, changing their lives etc I mean, I should know I used to be one. However, jesus said, noone comes to the father except through me.
I recommend John Todd, and William schnoebelen on YouTube.

 

[“Paisios”]

I know many know of the changes life doctrine to prove one is saved.
I dont hold to that strictly but do think some changes happen. I don't have a rule for it but I think there is some change.
We are not or never will be sinless.

What got me thinking is those who hold to the works and outside rightouness people can observe.

I've heard and even known pagans to have more self control, love, overcome addictions and other obstacles without Christ. On the flip side I've met many more Christian's who dont overcome an addiction, still struggle with sins but trust on Christ.

So we can't use the actions of people always to be a test of their faith or salvation.

My next thought is how do we know some of our overcoming isn't just us and our so called will power?

Just been chewing on this.



What do you think? Have you ever encountered this?

Please keep it friendly no nasty debates.

CS Lewis talks about this in Mere Christianity. He says it is the wrong question to ask whether a particular Christian is better morally than a non-Christian since we all start at different places in life. The better question to ask is if the Christian is a better person than he was before he was a Christian. We all develop spiritually at different rates.

 

[John 12:25]

God blesses both believers and nonbelievers alike. Some people are also more heavily cursed than others due to the sins of their ancestors. Everyone’s situation is different. But honestly, I think people who experience ‘success’ in this life without Christ are at a disadvantage. They’re more likely to rely on themselves rather than turn to God and rely on Him.

Matthew 5:45
“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”

 

[lamb7]

It could be that Christ subconsciously works in them, couldn't it? (I know someone that this happened with.)

I've thought of that kinda like when Paul mentioned that the law was on the hearts of those who had not the law.... forgot the verse.. but it's possiable?

 

[lamb7]

Of course are pagans and others capable of being loving, changing their lives etc I mean, I should know I used to be one. However, jesus said, noone comes to the father except through me.
I recommend John Todd, and William schnoebelen on YouTube.

Is John Todd the guy from the 70's ig so I've heard his story. Wonder what happened to him

 

[Godcrazy]

They have different versions of what happened. One is he was unrighteous put in jail for a offense, released and immediately killed or, killed before that. Another that he went back to the occult yet another that they still keep him. I believe they either killed him or they still have him.
With what he exposed I wouldn't believe he went back. As that would be suicide. A lot of what he's said is happening or have. I believe he spoke the truth, he probably had mental health issues no wonder.

 

[Godcrazy]

Well there's William schnoebelen too. He was in the occult.

 

[St_Worm2]

I know many know of the changes life doctrine to prove one is saved.
I dont hold to that strictly but do think some changes happen. I don't have a rule for it but I think there is some change.
We are not or never will be sinless.

What got me thinking is those who hold to the works and outside rightouness people can observe.

I've heard and even known pagans to have more self control, love, overcome addictions and other obstacles without Christ. On the flip side I've met many more Christian's who dont overcome an addiction, still struggle with sins but trust on Christ.

So we can't use the actions of people always to be a test of their faith or salvation.

My next thought is how do we know some of our overcoming isn't just us and our so called will power?

Just been chewing on this.



What do you think? Have you ever encountered this?

Please keep it friendly no nasty debates.

Hi Lamb7, while it is undoubted that non-believers can make changes that will better their own lives, unless these changes somehow lead them to Christ, they do not serve the purpose that God has in mind when He makes the changes He does in those of us who will be His (which is, first and foremost, to bring us to Christ .. cf John 6:29).

God's purpose in changing us never has its end in our having a better, healthier, and/or more prosperous life on this side of the grave (though that can certainly happen). Rather, God's principal purpose is to make knowing Him possible .. cf John 17:3 (that we might seek forgiveness, repent, and be saved from both our sins and our sinful lifestyles in the here and now, & from His wrath in the age to come ).

God uses our failures and sinfulness (along with His Law) to help teach us why we need a Savior .. cf Galatians 3:24, so obtaining a better life apart from Christ may actually be detrimental for any who do not know Him, be they atheists, pagans, or even those who claim to be Christians but are not (because money, and success in general, are things that often help keep non-Christians from admitting their absolute need for a Savior).

Yours and His,
David

It is not the absence of sin, but the grieving over it, which
distinguishes the child of God from empty professors.
~Arthur W. Pink~
.​

 

[lamb7]

Well there's William schnoebelen too. He was in the occult.

Never heard of him I'll look him up