Change to the Appeals process, changes to Staff and a few other things

[LittleLambofJesus]

My RT thread was closed for review and never reopened. Since I was banned, I couldn't even send a PM to ask what was up. Eventually, it just disappeared. Let's hope that the Advisors really mean it when they say the RT will be focusing on member service.

I think the funniest thing that happened to me when I was banned for awhile was a member tried to rep me on a post and I saw them say "yer light bulb isn't showing".

 

[Tonks]

I think the funniest thing that happened to me when I was banned for awhile was a member tried to rep me on a post and I saw them say "yer light bulb isn't showing".

I think it took me about 3 months to figure out what the heck that thing is

 

[BelindaP]

Thanks for withholding judgment until there is a bit more awareness.

Eh?

 

[Tonks]

Eh?

Eh, you could have blasted the whole process.

 

[BelindaP]

I'm not understanding you.

 

[Uphill Battle]

We're only human but do try hard.

some do, anyways.

Bans are appealable...during which everything will be reviewed. Just not every step of the way.

which is a problem that nobody will address. Take this example. If you're building a house, and all the work is slipshod, do you just look at the roof when it's done, to determine whether or not the house is well built? that would be very silly of the engineer/builder, don't you think?

likewise, if it's impossible to challenge the staff on decisions made on earlier punitive actions, which they use as justification for FURTHER action, you are basically setting up a system where it matters ZERO how spurious the previous conduct of the staff is... it's just the last brick on the load that is examined. It's quite shortsighted.

The funny thing with the entire discussion is the overwhelming (well, out of certain corners) cry that "this won't work!!!!" Which is very similar to the cries before of the system not working. After gathering some data we agreed with some of the conclusions and have made a change.

who's conclusions?

However, the claims are hollow. The new system has been in place for approximately 24 hours. We don't even have one data point yet. So, this is really a lot of casting bones and reading tea leaves.

I don't know about that. I'm currently running through it right now. Guess I'm one of the first "test cases" for the data gathering?

always good to contribute... even if your a guinea pig, I guess.

As I said...I'm willing to let things run to actually gather data to see how things turn out.

some of us aren't. Specifically the ones that are already getting screwed by it.

Until the system has had enough time to run - and allow us to make adjustments where we mess up - all of the rest of this is secondary or tertiary at best.

small comfort to those who get facemasked by the "oops."

It seems to be more: I generally think change is necessary...but the change simply isn't one that I can support.

I find it regrettable then, that you have to "support" it.

as always Tonks, I appreciate your input. It's good to know that SOME staff.... well never mind. I just know you're one of the reasonable ones.

 

[drstevej]

I'm not understanding you.

He is thanking you for your willingness to wait and see.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

long soliloquies.

Sorry. The issue of bans and appeals came up. I gave my views. You decided to read what I posted. It was your choice.

I confess, when I feel I'm being misunderstood or that someone desires to misunderstand, I tend to get wordy. I apologize.

I read the opening post to welcome our comments. Sorry. I made some of MY comments (placing no value on such). I'm pleased that you chose to read them (thank you), but that's it. Are my posts causing you great distress? I'm sorry if they are. I know you are a wonderful Staffer with a very important ministry that you take VERY seriously (as you should) and are going the very best you can (in cooperation with others) and welcoming input from others. I honor and respect you for all of that.

. However, what you're asking (really) is to be allowed into the reports. So, I guess I'll simply note your request.

Um, I'm not sure you read what I posted. I never said that. What I said is that Staff is capable of misjudging a situation and thus should be accountable - including by all their actions being appealable (at least that can lead to a ban).

You're engaging in a bit of the law of the excluded middle here.

Sorry, I don't know what that means.

The funny thing with the entire discussion is the overwhelming (well, out of certain corners) cry that "this won't work!!!!" Which is very similar to the cries before of the system not working. After gathering some data we agreed with some of the conclusions and have made a change.

Woah! I said no such thing.

Of course...what this really is about (it seems) is that there have been changes made that conflict, philosophically, some with people...and everything has been declared a giant failure. Ok. Sounds good. People are free to hold whatever opinion they so desire. However, the claims are hollow. The new system has been in place for approximately 24 hours. We don't even have one data point yet. So, this is really a lot of casting bones and reading tea leaves.

Wow. Um, I'm not sure why you are posting this to me in response to my post.

I DO think that there are some causes to the rapid decline of CF, but I don't (for a second) think that the mods have anything to do with that - they are simply working long and hard to be fair, balanced, helpful and just. And, IMHO (and perhaps we respectfully disagree) keeping the working of reports open and accountable is helpful in that regard. But, you're the one with the first-hand knowledge and the responsibility and authority. I was just sharing MY personal, humble, fallible, individual and generic comments on a subject - which you chose to read. And a little bit of your replies are in response to what I posted (thank you very much!). The decisions are not mine, nor do I think they should be. I'm just ONE lowly poster. But I DID post a couple of my thoughts - which I had hoped would be okay to post. I still think they good. Perhaps you don't. Okay. I appreciate knowing your perspective very much! I just wish it could be without the personal rebuffs and criticisms and slams.

As I said...I'm willing to let things run to actually gather data to see how things turn out. Until the system has had enough time to run - and allow us to make adjustments where we mess up - all of the rest of this is secondary or tertiary at best. It seems to be more: I generally think change is necessary...but the change simply isn't one that I can support. Here, I have all of these ideas to make it better. You and I have no idea whether or not it will be better or worse. We may have opinions but we have no data.

Okay. Sounds like a good plan to me. I KNOW you (and the other upper Staff) have a very deep and genuine sense of ministry and service, and that you are doing your best to make CF work better. I applaud that. I have the highest esteem for the Staff of CF. And always have had. This was an OPEN thread. It SEEMED that our replies, suggestions, comments, etc. were welcomed (if not invited). I sincerely apologize if I misunderstood. I DO seem to have caused some HUGE personal stuff in you toward me - and I feel badly about that. Others see it, too. Please forgive....

Of course there is also the argument from authority fallacy that has been occuring in the last few posts. I'm aware that several people posting in this thread were formerly on staff. I'm also aware that it was a year or two ago.

... and I guess I get the brunt. Well, we ALL have our perspectives, don't we? And YES, it's colored by OUR individual experiences. Some of them sharp and deep. But as you said, in some cases, ancient history best buried (as I have done). This is here and now. And you are no doubt absolutely correct that there is MUCH about the CF of NOW that I don't know about. Hey, I'm just a lowly, fallible, individual poster. Nothin' more. If I'm not understanding something, a friendly note of update is certainly a good thing (if you are so willing) or even just a "how I currently think/feel/see things" - and that is MORE than welcomed! I just am a bit taken aback (more than a bit) by the personalness of some of your replies. Perhaps those in high places with great responsibilities get tired of people making comments, suggestions, and the sharing of perspectives? You have a tough ministry! I've added you to my journal for daily prayer (I hope that's okay).



Peace.


- Josiah



.

 

[BelindaP]

OK. I thought that was what he was saying, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some subtext. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[CaDan]

*drags a big fat elephant out into the room*

A number of members have been permanently banned from this site after years of membership in the community based upon personal animosity of some of the advisors. Some, like drstevej, have been allowed to return after a change in administrations. Some remain banned with no access to the new and improved appeals system. Perhaps by pointing this out, I will join the ranks of the perma-banned. Such things are unpredictable.

In any event, until the advisors are willing to accede to the rule of law and not their own whims in this matter, the proposed reforms are nothing but a Potemkin village. The facade may appear attractive, but behind it is nothing but mud huts and squalor.

 

[Tonks]

*drags a big fat elephant out into the room*

A number of members have been permanently banned from this site after years of membership in the community based upon personal animosity of some of the advisors. Some, like drstevej, have been allowed to return after a change in administrations. Some remain banned with no access to the new and improved appeals system. Perhaps by pointing this out, I will join the ranks of the perma-banned. Such things are unpredictable.

In any event, until the advisors are willing to accede to the rule of law and not their own whims in this matter, the proposed reforms are nothing but a Potemkin village. The facade may appear attractive, but behind it is nothing but mud huts and squalor.

At least you're consistent.

 

[CaDan]

No matter how closely I study it,
No matter how I take it apart,
No matter how I break it down,
It remains consistent.

King Crimson~Indiscipline

 

[ChrisBot]

This is all very interesting.

 

[MariaRegina]

Who let Chris loose? It has not been 1000 posts yet.

@CaDan: We are all inconsistent. It is part of human nature. No one is perfect.

One is Holy, One is the Lord, Jesus Christ. To the Glory of God the Father. Amen.

 

[CaDan]

This is all very interesting.

Are we there yet?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is all very interesting.

And what does my bro Chrisbot have to say about it so far.....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Some people, it seems, will never ever be happy.

They are the ones who should go start their own website and make their own rules and allow and/or disallow whatever they want.

 

[CaDan]

Some people, it seems, will never ever be happy.

They are the ones who should go start their own website and make their own rules and allow and/or disallow whatever they want.

With a red thread around their horns?

More seriously: Creating and exiling scapegoats won't work.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

With a red thread around their horns?

More seriously: Creating and exiling scapegoats won't work.

Hey, look, no one is forcing anyone to be here. If we continually change the rules to make this person happy and then this other person happy, we see what happens.

If I ever got truly disgruntled with this site yet still wanted the fellowship that it brings, I'd probably try my hand at operating another web site. But...I have some degree of knowledge of what it takes to run such a website, so I'm content to let people like Pauler and the advisors run this one. If it ever got so bad, I'd simply leave and not come back.

I don't see how anyone is creating scapegoats. You break the rules, you get punished. It's pretty cut and dry, and after some of us did some extensive research, I can honestly say that CF is more forgiving than most web forums around. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've gotten in trouble for at other forums.

It's like the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Same principle, CaDan. CF doesn't ban people...people's actions get them banned.

 

[brinny]

This is all very interesting.

yayyyyy!! Chrisbot!!!! *dances around cyber room with Chris*