Challenging verses: Perserverance of the Saints

[brightlights]

This thread is a duplication of a thread that I started on the reformed forum. Please forgive me for the redundancy, but I think that a few here may offer insight.

I suspect that you all are familiar with these verses. I came across them recently, and (to me) they seem to present a challenge to the Perserverance of the Saints doctrine. Could you please help me to understand the meaning of these passages?

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I cannot present an "explanation" as I both agree with your assessment that they present a challenge and do not hold to OSAS, which I think is what you and perhaps many interpret as the meaning of "perseverance of the saints". Am certain someone holding those beliefs could explain these verses for you.

The Church believes and has always taught a believer can turn away from God and that if such a one does not turn back before death, they can be damned. Which is exactly why Paul warns us to perservere.

 

[Calminian]

This thread is a duplication of a thread that I started on the reformed forum. Please forgive me for the redundancy, but I think that a few here may offer insight.

I suspect that you all are familiar with these verses. I came across them recently, and (to me) they seem to present a challenge to the Perserverance of the Saints doctrine. Could you please help me to understand the meaning of these passages?

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

2 Peter 2:20-22
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

The passages above speak of enlightenment and knowledge. Neither mention faith nor salvation. Within the church there are wheats and tares. All you have to do is look at the descriptions of the churches in Revelation and you can see not all members are believers. Yet they are still referred to as "churches." Peter and the author of Hebrews are warning those that have been enlightened by God that they must believe and enter the rest of salvation (Heb. 4:1-2) before it's too late and the light is taken away. Jesus put it this way: John 12:35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

That’s my take.

 

[JaimeMan]

The passages above speak of enlightenment and knowledge. Neither mention faith nor salvation. Within the church there are wheats and tares. All you have to do is look at the descriptions of the churches in Revelation and you can see not all members are believers. Yet they are still referred to as "churches." Peter and the author of Hebrews are warning those that have been enlightened by God that they must believe and enter the rest of salvation (Heb. 4:1-2) before it's too late and the light is taken away. Jesus put it this way: John 12:35 Then Jesus said to them, “A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going. 36 “While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.”

That’s my take.

I agree

 

[Van]

The OSAS understanding of these verses is as follows:

The folks have heard and understood the gospel, they have been enlightened but not yet chosen by God or spiritually baptized into the body of Christ. Hence they were never saved. But they were set apart from those who never were partakers of the heavenly gift, the gospel of Christ. The powers, those that will reign with Christ in the age to come, are the believers who shared the gospel by word and deed.

Folks who understand the gospel and then trample on the Son of God, who reject Jesus, who do not believe and trust in God's promises, cannot be brought back to repentance. Therefore, they did repent and turn to God when they first heard the gospel, when perhaps they readily received the gospel. These are the folks of Matthew 13:20-21. Thus when they fall away from their superficial faith in Christ, they are again crucifying Christ, just as the ungodly men crucified Christ on a hill far away. So long as they continue in their unbelief, it is impossible to bring them to repentance again. And once you have considered a premise and filed it under "true" or "false" it is more difficult to look at it again objectively. Therefore they are in worse shape, then if they had never accepted the gospel message superficially.

The world is full of false concepts and premises, and so if we are presented with the truth and lay hold of it, we have escaped the defilement of the world, with defiled meaning we believe in falsehoods. And so those, who are temporarily in the group of folks that accept the truth of the gospel, have been sanctified, set apart from those who believe falsehoods. Now if folks fall out of this group, and return to their own vomit so to speak, to the defilement of falsehoods, they are worse off then never having accepted the gospel.

The author of Hebrews explained in verses 7 and 8 that God's rain falls on all, but only ground cultivated produce useful crops, the rain produces weeds elsewhere.

In verse 9 (Hebrews 6:9) the author of Hebrews contrasts the worse condition of those who accept the gospel, enlightened but not chosen, with those God has mercy upon. Better things, the better things that accompany salvation, apply to you, even though we are speaking to you of the things that accompany a lack of salvation. Be diligent, the author of Hebrews exhorts, so that you may enjoy the FULL assurance of hope until the end.

The author of Hebrews says this, "remember the former days, when after you were enlightened, you endured a great conflict of suffering" (Hebrews 10:32). This endurance is contrasted with those who keep on sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth (enlightened but not chosen).

In summary, all four passages, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-31, John 15:1-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22 teach of the condition of being enlightened but not chosen because of superficial or rootless belief. This is contrasted with those that believe from the heart, who endure and do not fall away, who have been spiritually baptized into the body of Christ. The underlying truth is we do not save ourselves by believing in Jesus, God saves us if our belief is sufficient for His purpose. But we are not to worry, we are to trust all the more and exercise diligence with the full assurance of our hope in our savior Jesus Christ.

 

[pcwilkins]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This doesn't say its possible for a believer to fall away. All it says is, if a believer does fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. The KJV puts it as it is impossible for them to 'renew themselves' unto repentance.

If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”

Again, this verse doesn't say it's possible for a believer to fall away - there is an important 'if'.

It's a bit like saying "If a giant albatross grabbed the sun in its beak and flew off a few light years, the earth would freeze fairly quickly."

Of course the usual response is "Well, if falling away isn't possible, then why bother warning?" I'll tell you why. Because God may have appointed those warnings as the means to stop someone falling away.

Just like saying "If salvation is fully God's work, why bother preaching?" Because it pleases God to use that preaching to fulfil His purposes.

Peter

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

This doesn't say its possible for a believer to fall away. All it says is, if a believer does fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.

"Brought back" does not sound like something one does, but to me sounds like something that is done to someone.


Would have to agree that if one turns away as Peter and Judas did, only that individual can later decide to bring themselves back. You can attempt to influence them, but there is nothing that can be done to or on thier half for them to "bring them back" against their will or after the fact (baptism of the dead for example)

 

[Calminian]

This doesn't say its possible for a believer to fall away. All it says is, if a believer does fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. The KJV puts it as it is impossible for them to 'renew themselves' unto repentance.

Not my KJV.

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

"Brought back" does not sound like something one does, but to me sounds like something that is done to someone.

You would be correct. The verbal noun is a present active infinitive. This means it's continuous in its aspect. The writer is saying therefore that if one is enlightened and tastes all the various things in verses 4-5 and does not believe, the continual renewing (by someone outside of him, obviously God) will not continue. This seems to support the idea that there is a time when God's continual drawing will cease if not mixed with the proper response.

 

[pcwilkins]

Not my KJV.

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame

Ooops, apologies. My mistake. My point was though that it is impossible for us to renew them, and it is impossible for them to renew themselves. But it doesn't say God cannot grant them new repentance.

Peter