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Challenging Evolution

razzelflabben

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Jet Black said:
stop being such a narrow minded round earther :/ why don't you consider last tuesdayism?
I can here to set the original record straight, I did that.
I stated my case and though many of you claimed to agree, you argued as if I was a moron and refused to listen, assuming me to be wrong without ever knowing what I actually believe.

There is nothing else for me to say or do here.
Now, I take my leave and leave you to your strawman argueing. I have no time for such tom foolary and hope that someday you will find a way to be a peace rather than always trying to seek out arguements.
 
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1Trinity3

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trinity asked for whale transitionals (these were provided and ignored)
A website was provided. Yippee. That covers it as everything on the internet is true.
trinity asked how ID was falsified - it was demonstrated that ID does not fit the criteria for a theory, and has no supporting evidence. what evidences it did have were demonstrated to be evidences for evolution. this was ignored
This was discarded as it fails to meet your criteria as a Theory. You ignore the evidence despite the observations.
trinity alleged that the outcomes of evolutionary theory were not observed, I demonstrated this to be wrong with an extensive list of evidence for evolution. this was ignored.
NO. Another one of your famous distortions of my post.
trinity alleged that evolutio nwas unfalsifiable without the undefined term "ascent" this was demonstrated to be incorrect and ignored.
I must have missed this one as it was YOU who chose to ignore my request.
trinity again asked for evidence of abiogenesis, despite being earlier told that abiogenesis does not form a part of evolutionary theory.
And I replied the reason it was not included becasue it would indeed falsify TOE.
trinity mentioned information and was asked to define information three times, but has not yet done so.
Trinity has a life away from the computer. Trinity does not spend his entire existence replying to babble on this board. I am replying now:yawn:
trinity again asked for evidence of ancestry, even though this had already been done.
Not quite. A few fossils were offered, however, the trunk of your tree has yet to even grow roots... I think the shoe is still on the other foot here!
trinity mentioned the 2nd law of thermodynamics as evidence against evoution, without demonstrating how and asked for examples of order from chaos, these were supplied.
Snowflakes...??? Please try a little harder.
Trinity
 
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1Trinity3

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razzelflabben said:
BTW, 1Trinity3 you seem to be keeping you calm, thanks, that helps in understanding what is being said. These blokes like logic, they need non-emotional logic thrown at them seems like you are doing that pretty well.
And then there was one:sigh:
Patience is indeed a viture. Please exercise a bit more and stay. This is hardly a fair arguement. Eight agaisnt one is still pretty good odds for the truth to prevail... but with you here it improves to goes four to one and keeps me on an even keel.
Trinity
 
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J

Jet Black

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1Trinity3 said:
A website was provided. Yippee. That covers it as everything on the internet is true.
say, it was only a university and whatnot, what do they know :rolleyes:
This was discarded as it fails to meet your criteria as a Theory. You ignore the evidence despite the observations.
so is it testable then?
Snowflakes...??? Please try a little harder.
well are they order from chaos? look at those 6 points and rotational symmetry. they are hardly chaotic now are they?

I snipped all the other blatant evasions off.

so are you going to answer any of the question or evidence or are you just going to attempt to handwave them away? if you feel this has got off on the wrong foot and would like to start again, feel free. I'm quite happy to tell you about evolution if you don't just ignore everything I say like you have been so far.
 
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Arikay

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Unless you can refute it, we don't need too.

Still curious if you think the majority of scientists are morons that never graduated from high school physics, or if there is a giant world wide 150 year old conspiracy?
(or, a shocker, that you are wrong about the 2LoT, but nah, you can never be wrong.)

1Trinity3 said:
Snowflakes...??? Please try a little harder.
Trinity
 
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J

Jet Black

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1Trinity3 said:
This is hardly a fair arguement. Eight agaisnt one is still pretty good odds for the truth to prevail... but with you here it improves to goes four to one and keeps me on an even keel.
Trinity
yeap, the truth is prevailing and the creationists are dropping like flies. well rassel didn't say he was a creationist but well.....
 
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Mistermystery

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1Trinity3 said:
This was discarded as it fails to meet your criteria as a Theory. You ignore the evidence despite the observations.
Oooh! Evidence! We all like evidence. Can you show us this "evidence" you speak of, preferably without resorting to some prattlist we've all heard before?
 
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T

The Bellman

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1Trinity3 said:
This was discarded as it fails to meet your criteria as a Theory. You ignore the evidence despite the observations.
No. It was discarded as it fails to meet THE criteria for being a scientific theory. ID is not a scientific theory.

1Trinity3 said:
And I replied the reason it was not included becasue it would indeed falsify TOE.
You reply falsely. It is not included because it is not part of ToE. It is not part of ToE because ToE is about how living organisms change. How they come into being in the first place is completely irrelevant to the ToE. As stated before, if it were (somehow) conclusively proven to everybody's satisfaction that abiogenisis is impossible, the ToE would not change in the slightest.

1Trinity3 said:
Trinity has a life away from the computer. Trinity does not spend his entire existence replying to babble on this board. I am replying now:yawn:
Yet Trinity ISN'T replying now. He STILL hasn't defined information, despite being asked FOUR times now.

1Trinity3 said:
Snowflakes...??? Please try a little harder.
Why? They are examples of order coming from chaos. You were given what you asked for.
 
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USincognito

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Mistermystery said:
Oooh! Evidence! We all like evidence. Can you show us this "evidence" you speak of, preferably without resorting to some prattlist we've all heard before?

I'm wondering if the PRATTs will be trotted out over the course of many posts, or if he'll just shotgun 'em in a single one.
 
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RoboMastodon

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1Trinity3 said:
Abiogenesis. Distionary.com

A = Without; not: amoral.

Bio =1) Life; living organism: biome. 2) Biology; biological: biophysics.

Genesis = The coming into being of something; the origin.
No matter how you want to frame the discussion... it is not going to change the meaning of a word. If abiogenesis was part of TOE... the theory would be falsified.
Trinity
homo = same
phobe = one who has a fear of dislike of
homephobe = one who has a fear of those that are the same.
Doesn't work: sometimes words aren't exactly what their greek/latin roots make them out ot be. In the case of abiogenesis, it describes a theory whereby complex organic structures can form simple life. Not simple non-organic structures forming complex life (as Redi disproved).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
 
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The Bellman

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mrversatile48 said:
Just time to say my masterly demolition of evo-loopy-poop & defence of creation was just posted in the creation versus evolution thread: just click on my name, then on "find all posts by..." :cool:

Just off to enjoy the sun :wave:

God bless!

Ian :clap:
And ya just gotta respect the claims of someone who talks about "evo-loopy-poop".
 
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mrversatile48

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Post before the post before last not really understood...

Every time I've read on this board, evolutionists have called creationists crazy/lunatics

I demonstrate that the boot is on the other foot, as in this... :cool:



True science is based on observation...


...& if Darwin drivel were right, evolution from 1 species to another, to another & another, would still go on

Even evolutionists admit those 2 statements :clap:

So what do our eyes plainly see?

Clear differences between all species :p

So where are all the smart apes struggling to turn head honcho human?

Where are the millions of missing links between all stages, in fact?

If Darwin were right, the differences between adjacent steps/links, on their so-called evolutionary ladder/chain, would be as minute as the differences between adjoining frames of a movie film, because change is gradual

But ha-not-so, Grasshopper!!

Same in the fossil record

Corpses rot away to dust

The very existence of fossils took the cataclysmic pressure of the global flood of Genesis 6 to create: see "Noah's Ark & The Genesis Flood" - by Creation Science Research Assoc

1 fascinating fact that was maybe not in that book is that a French satellite, taking X-ray photos produced proof that something the exact shape & size of Noah's Ark is buried beneath ice is the Ararat range of mountains

Forget kids' cartoon images: it was 450 feet long, 75 ft wide & 45 ft high - (Genesis 6:15 - www.BibleGateway.org)

Furthermore, the vital building blocks of evolution are beneficial mutations being continued, stage-by-stage

Every mutation known to man is in fact detrimental & soon corrected!!!!

1 of the most established laws of science is that things left to themselves tend to decay - not to improve

Evolutionists expect us to believe that matter was brought into being by a Big Bang

Reality check: no explosion has ever created anything

Big Bangs blow things up

They destroy everything

So evolution is unscientific: it goes against all observation

See also www.answersingenesis.org

God bless!

Ian
 
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Every mutation known to man is in fact detrimental & soon corrected!!!!
Just wanted to hit on this one point before I go to bed...

If every mutation known to man is detrimental, then I shouldn't be able to name a single one, right?

Like the Delta-32 mutation?

Or:
Ser447-Stop mutation
Polymorphism in the Coagulation Factor VII gene
Gbeta3-s

That's four in under one minute off the top of my head. I think you need to either: A) prove that all of those mutations are harmful, or B) renounce at least that part of your statement.
 
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gluadys

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mrversatile48 said:
True science is based on observation...

True. And that means observation in depth, not a superficial glance. We can all make mistakes at first glance which are corrected when we examine things more closely.


...& if Darwin drivel were right, evolution from 1 species to another, to another & another, would still go on


True. And it does. So?


So what do our eyes plainly see?

Clear differences between all species :p


Clearly you have not gone beyond superficial observation. In particular you have not looked at the observed instances of speciation. Where is the clear difference between the herring gull and the lesser black-backed gull, for example?

So where are all the smart apes struggling to turn head honcho human?

Why would modern apes "struggle" to become human? Evolution is not a program to turn all species into humans. There is no struggle on the part of any species (including our ancestors) to become human. In fact there is no struggle on the part of any species to become a different species. The only struggle is to survive and reproduce. Evolution is a consequence of that struggle. It is not a goal in itself.



Where are the millions of missing links between all stages, in fact?

A few thousand are waiting in museums for you to take a look at them. Lucaspa can show you 2000 snail shells you might like to examine.

If Darwin were right, the differences between adjacent steps/links, on their so-called evolutionary ladder/chain, would be as minute as the differences between adjoining frames of a movie film, because change is gradual

Right, as in the 2000 snail shells above. However, for some lineages we only have bits and pieces of the film. It's like having frames 5, 26, 98-101, 174, 290, etc. You can still see the general trend of change, but until more fossils are discovered, you can't run the whole film. Doesn't mean the film was not whole at one time. Just that parts of it are now lost.

What you can do is make some predictions of what is in the missing frames, and when a fossil is discovered, you can place it correctly in the sequence.


And btw, evolution is not a "ladder/chain". It is a branching out in many directions. Think of a series of Y's where each upper branch splits into another Y. It would be a good idea to do a search on the term "cladistic speciation" and to look at some cladograms.


Corpses rot away to dust

Usually, yes. That's the main reason all those frames from the film of evolution are missing. To become a fossil in the first place a corpse needs to be preserved from decomposition.

The very existence of fossils took the cataclysmic pressure of the global flood of Genesis 6 to create: see "Noah's Ark & The Genesis Flood" - by Creation Science Research Assoc

OK. You began by saying science is a matter of observation. What are the observations that back up this assertion? In particular, what are the observations which say that only a global flood could have created fossils.

And what observations confirm that a flood and nothing else explains the formation of one or more geological strata in which fossils are found? Which geological strata are the flood strata? How do you know (i.e. what observations tell you this?) And what observations confirm that a flood and nothing else explains the distribution of fossils in these strata?

1 fascinating fact that was maybe not in that book is that a French satellite, taking X-ray photos produced proof that something the exact shape & size of Noah's Ark is buried beneath ice is the Ararat range of mountains

Forget kids' cartoon images: it was 450 feet long, 75 ft wide & 45 ft high - (Genesis 6:15 - www.BibleGateway.org)



When we actually have an ark and not "something" in an X-ray photo, we can entertain what the evidence implies. Note that finding an ark on Ararat would only confirm that an ark came to rest on Ararat. It would not confirm how it got there. It would not confirm a global flood.

Furthermore, the vital building blocks of evo-loopy-poop are beneficial mutations being continued, stage-by-stage

Every mutation known to man is in fact detrimental & soon corrected!!!!

Need to do some more observing. The notion that most mutations are harmful was one of those superficial observations from the early 20th century studies of mutation which has since been corrected by more in-depth observation. It has now been confirmed that the vast majority of mutations are neutral with only a few (I forget the exact figure, but less than 5%) being detrimental.

You are also neglecting the fact that some mutations are beneficial, and they are preserved.

Furthermore, the consequence of eliminating harmful mutations while preserving beneficial mutations is the key to adaptation.

Let's neglect the majority of neutral mutations for a bit, and examine what happens to a species in which natural selection consistently favours a beneficial mutation and eliminates a harmful mutation. Let us also assume the harmful mutations occur 5 times more frequently than the beneficial muations.

Each time natural selection eliminates a harmful mutation, the status quo is retained. Each time natural selection preserves a beneficial mutation, the novel adaptation is adopted.

Let's begin with species A

1st mutation = harmful--->retain A
2nd mutation = harmful--->retain A
3rd mutation= beneficial---> adopt B
4th mutation = harmful--->retain B
5th mutation=harmful--->retain B
6th mutation=harmful--->retain B
7th mutation=harmful--->retain B
8th mutation=harmful--->retain B
9th mutation=harmful--->retain B
10th mutation=beneficial--->adopt C
11th mutation = harmful--->retain C
12th mutation=harmful--->retain C
13th mutation=harmful--->retain C
14th mutation=beneficial--->adopt D
15th mutation = harmful--->retain D
etc. etc.

Note that even if we found that only 1 in a 1,000 mutations was beneficial, we would still get this pattern of change, through which beneficial mutations are added to beneficial mutations only, while the harmful ones are eliminated.


1 of the most established laws of science is that things left to themselves tend to decay - not to improve

This is a mis-statement of the 2nd law of thermodynamics which actually says that in a closed system there will never be a movement of energy such that the only thing that happens is that heat is transferred from a hot area to a cold area.

In short, unless you have an incoming source of energy, you can't heat up a cold spot in a closed system without cooling down a hot spot.

Nevertheless, in the process of heating up the cold spot (and simultaneously cooling down the hot spot) you can use the movement of energy to do work. Not forever, but for as long as the transfer of energy occurs.

In an open system, where you do have incoming energy, you can keep working to organize complex mini-systems for a long, long time.

The earth is such a complex mini-system and each living inhabitant of earth is another complex mini-mini-system. No problem with the 2LOT at all.


Evo-loopies expect uys to believe that matter was brought into being by a Big Bang

Reality check: no explosion has ever created anything

Big Bangs blow things up

They destroy everything


Need to do some more observing again. The nickname for a theory ) does not necessarily described the theory accurately. Especailly when the nickname was bestowed by someone who opposed it. Contrary to the superficial conclusion, the event known as the "big bang" was not an explosion.

So evo-loopy-poop is unscientific: it goes against all observation

See also www.answersingenesis.org

Before you can come to that conclusion, you need to improve your own powers of observation.


God bless!

Ian


Same to you.
 
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J

Jet Black

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mrversatile48 said:
ven evo-loopies admit those 2 statements :clap:
rule violation
Clear differences between all species :p
except where there aren't.
So where are all the smart apes struggling to turn head honcho human?
strawman
Where are the millions of missing links between all stages, in fact?
dead, because they were outcompeted by the species that
If Darwin were right, the differences between adjacent steps/links, on their so-called evolutionary ladder/chain, would be as minute as the differences between adjoining frames of a movie film, because change is gradual
strawman, there is lots of variation within species.
The very existence of fossils took the cataclysmic pressure of the global flood of Genesis 6 to create: see "Noah's Ark & The Genesis Flood" - by Creation Science Research Assoc
what about all those examples where we can see fossils in formation?
Every mutation known to man is in fact detrimental & soon corrected!!!!
false, there are many beneficial mutations.
1 of the most established laws of science is that things left to themselves tend to decay - not to improve
false, this is a misrepresentation of thermodynamics.
Evo-loopies expect uys to believe that matter was brought into being by a Big Bang
well it was. (another rule violation there by the way)
Reality check: no explosion has ever created anything

Big Bangs blow things up

They destroy everything
misrepresentation of the Big Bang.
So evo-loopy-poop is unscientific: it goes against all observation
false. (rule violation there by the way.


this whole post seems to e a general rule violation, I'll let you know I reported it. and zour previous one, hopefully the moderators will deal with them accordingly.
 
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razzelflabben

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Jimmy The Hand said:
Actually I believe what has been said over and over and over and over again is that there is no evidence for Creationism and in fact the evidence actually falsifies creationism. I suppose you could read that as saying Creationism is not possible.
As I was leaving this thread, something struck me and I would greatly appreciate someone answering the question I have without the usual circular logic and arguement.

On according to the biblical account of creation, two elements apply.
1. God created the world and all that is in it.
Now we have already established that this is not testable, so as far as scientific methods go, Neutral.

2. Animals recreate after there kind.
Now science has been observing this phenomina for as long as science has been studied. So how then has science disproven the TOC?

I would seem to me that by the definitions given, C is fact and theory just as you claim the TOE to be.

Hummm, How then has science disporven the TOC???? Any help on this one?
 
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gluadys

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razzelflabben said:
As I was leaving this thread, something struck me and I would greatly appreciate someone answering the question I have without the usual circular logic and arguement.

On according to the biblical account of creation, two elements apply.
1. God created the world and all that is in it.
Now we have already established that this is not testable, so as far as scientific methods go, Neutral.

2. Animals recreate after there kind.
Now science has been observing this phenomina for as long as science has been studied. So how then has science disproven the TOC?

I would seem to me that by the definitions given, C is fact and theory just as you claim the TOE to be.

Hummm, How then has science disporven the TOC???? Any help on this one?


It comes down to the definition of kind.

How many kinds were created and what are they?

If kind=species (in the classic taxonomic definition of species), then species must be "fixed" such that no species changes over time to become or produce a different species.

This was the creationist position of the mid-19th century, and the one that Darwin spent the most of his work on refuting.

TOC did change this position and today, both TOE and TOC would agree that "kind" is not equivalent to "taxonomic species". Taxonomic species do change over time; they do produce new species.

That fact, accepted by TOC and TOE is what I have been referring to as the "fact" of evolution.

The current TOC definition of kinds envisages the creation of something wider than a taxonomic species, but still sees the creation of many kinds such that the "rabbit kind" is distinct from (and not related to) the "mouse kind".

TOE generally does not use the concept of "kind", but if it did, it would envisage the creation of only one or a very few simple kinds of prokaryotic life forms of which all present-day life forms are descendants.

Science has proven that the TOC definition of "kinds" is invalid, by showing that all life forms are indeed phylogenetically related i.e. related through descent from common ancestors --- and presumably--- from a single common ancestor of all currently existing species.

As I stated at the very outset, a lot of creo-evo disputation is not grounded in disagreement about actual observation, but in how we define and label those observations. For evo's changes in species, whether or not those changes lead to speciation, is evolution. But creo's define evolution differently so that these changes do not, by their definition, add up to evolution, even when they do lead to speciation.

We agree on the observation. We disagree on the label.

So where evo's see evolution as a fact, creo's don't see evolution at all.
 
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notto

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razzelflabben said:
As I was leaving this thread, something struck me and I would greatly appreciate someone answering the question I have without the usual circular logic and arguement.

On according to the biblical account of creation, two elements apply.
1. God created the world and all that is in it.
Now we have already established that this is not testable, so as far as scientific methods go, Neutral.

2. Animals recreate after there kind.
Now science has been observing this phenomina for as long as science has been studied. So how then has science disproven the TOC?

I would seem to me that by the definitions given, C is fact and theory just as you claim the TOE to be.

Hummm, How then has science disporven the TOC???? Any help on this one?
The theory of Creationism as often used by youth earth creationists which contents that the earth is under 10,000 years old and that all 'kinds' were created as is at one time has been falsified by evidence and observation. Throw in the global flood which has also been falsified and the 3 major points of standard creationism have been falsified by science.

Creation is fact, the standard theory of creationism is a falsified one.

You left quite a bit out of the definition of creationism.
 
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