Challenging Evolution

[Aron-Ra]

You were created in the image of God. You are not a monkey. Although some of us would like to act like it… you are not.

Just to make sure, can you give me a definition of what a monkey is, one that would identify even a new species of monkey that no one had ever seen before?

Would you also say that we are not apes? If so, I would also ask for a description of what an ape is.

 

[1Trinity3]

Just as a matter of information:

accent =/= ascent

decent =/= descent

Mommamia - my spelling stinks.
Trintiy

 

[1Trinity3]

Just to make sure, can you give me a definition of what a monkey is, one that would identify even a new species of monkey that no one had ever seen before?

Would you also say that we are not apes? If so, I would also ask for a description of what an ape is.

A definition of a monkey would be readily available if a cogent definition of species were.
As far as a desription goes??? Do you have cable?
Trinity

 

[Jet Black]

You seem to be ignoring my request to provide for ascent.
How did the first organisms:
1. Come from non-life
2. Exist in a non-existant biosphere
3. Increase their DNA information forming something like a... leg, to begin with. (A known mechanism is what I'm asking for here)
TOE ASSUMES ancestry. I'm asking someone to demonstrate it.
Trinity

in what way were the evidences I gave not evidence for common ancestry? again you are asking for abiogenesis, this is irrelevant to eovlution. Lets just say God created the first bacterium, I don't really care.

(2) I don't get what you are asking here
(3) on legs:you want to do a search for the work done by per ahlberg and jennifer clack on the evolution of tetrapods. it's rather interesting, and they found some really nice examples that filled Romer's Gap.


also you have failed to define information.

 

[1Trinity3]

aah, now we get on to the other ID card, the information card. first of all please define information to us, and tell us why it cannot increase.

Wow, it is right there on your post!

2nd Law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide an example of order coming from disorder... the Law applies in this case.

(Also... please don't give this song and dance about entropy... heat... blaw blaw blaw). The Law prohibits order forming from chaos.

Trinity

 

[1Trinity3]

Jet Black]in what way were the evidences I gave not evidence for common ancestry? again you are asking for abiogenesis, this is irrelevant to eovlution. Lets just say God created the first bacterium, I don't really care.

OK, lets just say He did.
Demonstrate how a bacteria becomes a worm utilizing information theory.

(3) you want to do a search for the work done by per ahlberg and jennifer clack on the evolution of tetrapods. it's rather interesting, and they found some really nice examples that filled Romer's Gap.

Micheal Behe - Darwin's Black Box. Good read.
Trinity

 

[razzelflabben]

Yup. And it's very narrow minded to assume that the idea of a flat earth, or a geo-centric universe cannot add anything to our understanding of this world, either, right?

Please. False ideas don't add anything to our understanding of the world.

Are humans not part of our world? Can we not understand humans and the way they think by examining their ideas, false or not? I really am convinced none of you are getting the point. There is always something new to learn, and if we stop making accusations and false assumptions, we can learn much much more than we ever thought possible.

 

[Jet Black]

2nd Law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide an example of order coming from disorder... the Law applies in this case.

snowflakes and salt crystals. thermal proteins. galaxies, gravity.

 

[notto]

Wow, it is right there on your post!

2nd Law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide an example of order coming from disorder... the Law applies in this case.

(Also... please don't give this song and dance about entropy... heat... blaw blaw blaw). The Law prohibits order forming from chaos.

Trinity

None of the mechanisms used in mainstream evolutionary theory break any laws of thermodynamics. Name one that does and we can talk.

Read a book.

 

[Jet Black]

Demonstrate how a bacteria becomes a worm utilizing information theory.

are you going to actually answer my question? you have still not even defined what you mean my information, this is my third request for a definition

Micheal Behe - Darwin's Black Box. Good read.

what has this got to do with anything?

 

[notto]

OK, lets just say He did.
Demonstrate how a bacteria becomes a worm utilizing information theory.

Descent with modification using physical and chemical processes that have been observed to occur quite well.

Next.

 

[Jet Black]

trinity, are you going to continue to shuffle on and change the argument, or are you ever going to answer questions and deal with the evidence?

 

[Jet Black]

summary of the past couple of pages:

trinity asked for whale transitionals (these were provided and ignored)
trinity asked how ID was falsified - it was demonstrated that ID does not fit the criteria for a theory, and has no supporting evidence. what evidences it did have were demonstrated to be evidences for evolution. this was ignored
trinity alleged that the outcomes of evolutionary theory were not observed, I demonstrated this to be wrong with an extensive list of evidence for evolution. this was ignored.
trinity alleged that evolutio nwas unfalsifiable without the undefined term "ascent" this was demonstrated to be incorrect and ignored.
trinity again asked for evidence of abiogenesis, despite being earlier told that abiogenesis does not form a part of evolutionary theory.
trinity mentioned information and was asked to define information three times, but has not yet done so.
trinity again asked for evidence of ancestry, even though this had already been done.
trinity mentioned the 2nd law of thermodynamics as evidence against evoution, without demonstrating how and asked for examples of order from chaos, these were supplied.

doing well so far.

 

[Aron-Ra]

You seem to be ignoring my request to provide for ascent.
How did the first organisms:
1. Come from non-life

That depends on what you call life. Its a really gray area. Would you say that viruses are alive?

2. Exist in a non-existant biosphere

Life creates its own biosphere. If you meant atmosphere, life created that too. Then later versions of it became dependant on it.

3. Increase their DNA information forming something like a... leg, to begin with. (A known mechanism is what I'm asking for here)

There is no such thing as "increasing information" and no way to quantify information to see if it has increased or decreased. Any information that is different is new, but it doesn't necessarily mean "more".

TOE ASSUMES ancestry. I'm asking someone to demonstrate it.
Trinity

I'll be happy to, just as soon as you explain to me what a monkey, ape, primate, eutherian mammal, synapsid tetrapod, vertebrate craniate chordate, or bilateral metazoan eukaryotic organism is.

 

[Arikay]

Wow, good ol 2LoT.
Um, whats the highest science class you have taken?

Although i doubt you will answer this question, a question for you,
Do you think scientists are morons, or do you think its all just a big conspiracy? Do you really think that scientists would have spent 150 years on the theory of evolution and never realized that high school physics could prove it wrong? Or do you think its all a giant conspiracy?

Did you even bother to think any of your arguments through?
Oh and I liked the part where you almost got something in science right (that 2LoT has to do with heat in physics) and then you threw it away.

Wow, it is right there on your post!

2nd Law of thermodynamics. Unless you can provide an example of order coming from disorder... the Law applies in this case.

(Also... please don't give this song and dance about entropy... heat... blaw blaw blaw). The Law prohibits order forming from chaos.

Trinity

 

[Jet Black]

in what way does evolution violate the following:

The Second Law: There is no process for which the unique effect is the removal of positive heat from a reservoir and the production of positive work.

i.e. under what circumstances does evolution produce positive work as the unique effect of removal of heat from a reservoir?

 

[Aron-Ra]

A definition of a monkey would be readily available if a cogent definition of species were.

I don't see how that's related, but OK. How about this one? Where animals are concerned, a species is any interbreeding population that is consistently capable of producing viable offspring. There are other equally cogent definitions, but I didn't want to copy something from a dictionary.

As far as a desription goes??? Do you have cable?

Yes. Now do you have any other wholly irrelevant questions? Or are you ready to tell me what a monkey is?

 

[razzelflabben]

It is easy enough to follow and does demonstrate on how it COULD happen. As most theories... looks good on paper until results are expected. But who is constructing stawmen now? Or is this your version of science?

Trinity

And let us all remember that could and do are not always the same thing. I wonder, does that make it check mate for C. I hope not, I think we can learn a lot from E but it seems that that will never happen, a conversation where both sides address the issue as equals. Oh well, I gave it a shot and not I am so far behind the conversation I think I shall leave you to your arrogance once more. BTW, 1Trinity3 you seem to be keeping you calm, thanks, that helps in understanding what is being said. These blokes like logic, they need non-emotional logic thrown at them seems like you are doing that pretty well.

To you E here, I never said that E was not possible, you said that C was not possible. Who is narrow minded, the C or the E. In fact, trinity is also saying that E is possible. Hummmm, Yea, I think the C camp are the ones not listening! NOT

 

[Jet Black]

To you E here, I never said that E was not possible, you said that C was not possible. Who is narrow minded, the C or the E. In fact, trinity is also saying that E is possible. Hummmm, Yea, I think the C camp are the ones not listening! NOT

stop being such a narrow minded round earther :/ why don't you consider last tuesdayism?

 

[Jimmy The Hand]

Actually I believe what has been said over and over and over and over again is that there is no evidence for Creationism and in fact the evidence actually falsifies creationism. I suppose you could read that as saying Creationism is not possible.