Challenging Evolution

[mrversatile48]

In that environment, are you not also aware of Muslim militants in the UK who are actually against human rights and against personal freedoms; who wish to overthrow Democracy and allow Islam to dominate every government at the omission and eradication of every competing religion? Do you see how the integration of church and state in still-free and Democratic nations sort of paves the way for the Islamic agenda?

While the creation issue deeply divides Christianity, and threatens to increase its rate of decline, Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion in the world, and is expected to soon eclipse the entire Christian collective, (all denominations included). Sooner or later, even Christian creationists are going to be my allies, and together we will all be pleading to regain freedom of (and from) religion, and the re-separation of church and state. But by then, I fear, it will be too late.

I'll have time later, DV, to catch up with this fascinating thread properly

For now, another instant event, & more on how to progress & not decay...

@ least 3 top lawyers, separately, began quests to disprove the Resurrection of Christ

During research, all 3 became born-againChristians

Val Greave wrote "Evidence For The Resurrection"

I don't recall who wrote, "Who Moved The Stone?"

The 3rd, whose name & book I forget, was the most eminent - (Sir Fred Catherwood?)

"Those who follow after the flesh will, from the flesh, reap a harvest of destruction

"Those who follow after the Spirit will, from the Spirit, reap a good harvest - everlasting life"

& the Greek words translated as eternal life also mean unlimited in quality

Must dash!

Ian

 

[Jet Black]

can we please not derail this thread, if people want to talk about politics or whatever, do so in another thread, thankyou.

 

[mrversatile48]

I'll have time later, DV, to catch up with this fascinating thread properly

For now, another instant event, & more on how to progress & not decay...

@ least 3 top lawyers, separately, began quests to disprove the Resurrection of Christ

During research, all 3 became born-again Christians

Val Greave wrote "Evidence For The Resurrection"

I don't recall who wrote, "Who Moved The Stone?"

The 3rd, whose name & book I forget, was the most eminent - (Sir Fred Catherwood?)

"Those who follow after the flesh will, from the flesh, reap a harvest of destruction

"Those who follow after the Spirit will, from the Spirit, reap a good harvest - everlasting life"

& the Greek words translated as eternal life also mean unlimited in quality

Must dash!

Ian

How many guessed it was to be a rubbish removal mission?

Cancelled by heavy rain in Sunny Southport?

Anyway...

where was I?

(Apart from in the big black van, flanked by those nice men in white coats!)

Oh yeah..

Just to acknowledge Aron Ra's post about Islamist terrorists

I'm in the noisy homeless charity office where I help out & can't think what I meant to say..

Yes: I can hear all the jokes now..

AH: I did as sensitive a post as I could, a few days ago, on a thread asking Muslims to assess a Jewish website 2 years out of date, & gave current news links that I can't recall right now

Later, 'Gators!

Ian

 

[Jet Black]

in case you missed it the first time:

can we please not derail this thread, if people want to talk about politics or whatever, do so in another thread, thankyou.

 

[doubtingmerle]

100 pages and counting down (up?) to 1,000 posts.

Is this some kind of a record for CF?

Almost. It's #2 on the all-time evolution threads list, and growing rapidly. See longest threads in this section.

 

[mrversatile48]

Where does modern TE speak about more or less primitive forms of Homo sapiens sapiens? You're just trying to start trouble.

As I often say, in my part time cleaning job...

"Marshall's office just sent me to clean up this here town"

God bless!

Ian

 

[mrversatile48]

I know what Ian is alluding to. During the Victorian period we saw an advent of attempts to use science to justify racial inequality. For a while it worked, but it is important to look at it in more detail and see why it worked and why it was later brought down .

These attempts were born from a background of western imperial societies seeking to justify differential treatment of various human ethnic groups (although they would have used the term race then). In addition the idea of racial differences would have tied in rather neatly to the Georgian and Victorian love of classifying everything in a hierarchical manner.

What we now refer to as the “scientific racist” movement really got started with Samuel George Morton and his Crania Americana in which he published his conclusion based upon his work with measuring Cranial capacity of various skulls from various “races”. He claimed that because people of other races had smaller skulls they where obviously less intelligent. Now there are a number of problems with Mortons work, the most glairing being the obvious inductive leap that a relatively minor difference in cranial capacity would translate to a noticeable difference in intelligence. Since we now know that people with larger heads are not inherently smarter than those with smaller ones, Mortons inductive leap looks rather silly. Another obvious flaw was that Mortons sample size was small, he seemed to have come to his conclusion in advance and, in fact, the skulls of the Masai are generally larger than the skulls of the Caucasians, but he inexplicably didn’t notice that when he classified black Africans as a single “race“.

I should point out here that although Mortons claims fell from grace in the inter war years he was extensively debunked by Steven Jay Gould in 1981. (Gould was an evolutionist by the way).

The scientific racist movement gained momentum in the early 1850s with the publication of the races of Man by John Knox and The Inequality of Human Races by Count Gobineau. Taken together these books formed the basis for an argument that “race” was the basis for all cultural, literal and artistic achievement and that races could be split into the “Culture creators” (innately superior to all other races of man), the “Culture Bearers” (who where inferior to the creators but still a good long way up the evolutionary ladder) and the “Culture destroyers” who where considered the basest of human racial stock. Gobineau and Knox found their work widely accepted by western imperial societies who sought excuses to treat other, colonised native populations, differently to European ones, a fact the theologians at the time were only to happy to go along with.

In the interwar years the Parkinsons scholars guide produced a taxonomic table of the races of man that placed all human races into 5 primary races (White, Yellow, Brown, Red, Black), further delineating each into others. Popular culture accepted this taxonomic table, although many scientists objected even then.

However by the 1930s evolutionary scientists were attacking the taxonomic approach on all sides, complaining the divisions were arbitrary, untrue to the theory and tended to promote unsavoury political ideology. So when Ian tells us he left school in 1966 that is 30 years after evolutionary science began to debunk the taxonomic approach and promote a less racist claim that humans are pretty much humans and the term “Race” was no longer considered synonymous with “Ethnicity”.

In the natural sciences, taxonomic classifications of race were largely made taboo by the associations with the Nazi party (who, I should point out had revived older taxonomic theories already in general decline by their era). If anything the Social and not the natural sciences retained a semblance of scientific racism for longer, as Hans Eysencks controversial studies into IQ and educational performance attest. By the 1970s however Eysencks work was also largely debunked when it was pointed out that the IQ tests he used where culturally loaded.

Ghost

Thanks for reminding me what I heard in the '60s

I'm sure later posts will crack funnies about my leaving school in that most primitive era of pre-history

I'll just remind folk that the year of daily presentations I had on Creation Research was '74 - (any others here from Operation Mobilisation may well know the brilliant Harley Rollins from Montana, who made those superb presentations, so do say hi from this rusty-haired Brit singer/guitarist/mimic)

Any who know Barnabas Trust work for the Persecuted Church worldwide may well have heard director Patrick Sookhdeo say, "God made only 1 race: the human race"

Pat organised my final term of mission fieldwork from Moorlands Bible College: in E London's Stepney/Tower Hamlets/Mile End, right after the Brick Lane race riots of '78/'79's notorious "Winter of Discontent"

Again, if you know him, do say a grateful hi for an unforgettable & seminal experience

I saw & heard Trotskyite agitators spread their class war propaganda, to exploit racial tensions for their own ambitious ends

As I said, BNP neo-nazis use ET to justify theirs

Surely there's hardly a Brit unaware of news media highlighting BNP agitators call Africans/Asians sub-human

Must go!

Ian

 

[mrversatile48]

Ian your entire argument is a disgusting and despicable example of the fallacy of emotive language. The theory of evolution is not a racist theory, it was evolutionists and not creationists who attacked scientific racism successfully and brought it down. You are trying to dishonestly claim it is a racist theory when its not. According to evolution all human ethnic groups are Homo Sapiens Sapens and so none are more primitive than any other.



Do you want to know what I have a problem with Ian? I have a really big problem with white Anglo Saxons trying to co-opt the struggle against racism that those of us who are not white Anglo Saxons have endured. Don’t you dare try and tell me what it is like to be racially abused, I have had it first hand all my life thank you very much. I don’t need a second hand account of it from some one who is using it as a bargaining chip in a debate, that's just low.

Ghost
(About half way down the taxonomic table he mentioned in his earlier post)

You'll see from my last post that I'm on your side, dude

I'll add to it that as soon as the Oldham/Burnley/Bradford riots hit the headlines, I wrote to the biggest charismatic/evangelical churches in each area, shared about my Missions training & experience, & offered to help in any community reconciliation projects

I recomended then, as I do here & now, the setting up of social/cultural events for the different races etc to be able to get to know each other as people

Locals in each area already had that kinda stuff well in hand, but of course the media tend to focus on sensationalising bad news & ignore good news

Same in Ulster: friends of mine went on reconciliation projects there, all down the decades of "The Troubles"

Again, media ignored such positive influences

If any are regular listeners to BBC Radio Merseyside's lunchtime phone-in, you may well recall me say that www.operationworld.org assesses the Eire charismatic RC cell groups as "fully fulfilling the functions of evangelical churches"

I'm sure I put that here in late Jan/early Feb

So you're talking to a peacemaker

Albeit ex-champion martial arts team with cousins who were a Colonel, a Navy Commander & a Wing Commander: peacemaking means sorting out da bad guys

Yes: when Israel had its back to the wall, I offered to go fight for the IDF to defend 5m Jews against 250m Arabs

& posted that here too

I know being a "Scouser" ain't quite the same as being black, but it's common in UK to hear, "What's the best thing to come out of Liverpool?

"The M58!"

Keep smilin'

Ian

 

[mrversatile48]

this is of course, a misuse of Evolutionary theory, just as the justifications for black slavery based on the bible in the deep south of the US were a misuse of the Bible. trying to tar evolution with something that evolution isn't responsible for won't help your cause at all. That being said, I think you are being exceedingly rude here. as you can see several people are engaged in a conversation with razelflabben, and it is very impolite of you to distract the thread with your posts. If you want to talk about something not related to the thread, please do so in another thread, you wouln'd just butt into someone's conversation on the street would you? so don't do it here please.

Razz & others have said the same @ simply not having time to read all posts

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Any who know Barnabas Trust work for the Persecuted Church worldwide may well have heard director Patrick Sookhdeo say, "God made only 1 race: the human race"

Evolution theory makes the same claim, that we are all one race, pretending otherwise so you can pretend your opponents is racist, is exactly the hate mongering you claim to be opposed to. I found it personally offensive you would co-opt the experiences I and others of mixed race or non-white ethnic background have faced all our lives just to score a point over the opposing argument in a debate on evolution vs creation. All your claims to be a good guy and examples of what you have done for the struggle against racism did was show me that you should have known better but gleefully used this most painful of experiences as a dishonest debating tool regardless.

You know, its not worth it, I’m just sticking you on the ignore list.

Ghost

 

[Jet Black]

As I said, BNP neo-nazis use ET to justify theirs

Surely there's hardly a Brit unaware of news media highlighting BNP agitators call Africans/Asians sub-human

and all these hate mongers are morons who will say anything to support their uneducated prejudices. There is nothing like attempting to get science on your side in a debate, and often it is easy to fool the public into thinking that science says something it doesn't, which is essentially what the Social Darwinists, neo-nazi's and the like do with ET. It's be pretty sad, and please don't be sucked into their trap of believing that evolution says those sorts of things otherwise you are just as deluded as they are.

 

[mrversatile48]

Evolution theory makes the same claim, that we are all one race, pretending otherwise so you can pretend your opponents is racist, is exactly the hate mongering you claim to be opposed to. I found it personally offensive you would co-opt the experiences I and others of mixed race or non-white ethnic background have faced all our lives just to score a point over the opposing argument in a debate on evolution vs creation. All your claims to be a good guy and examples of what you have done for the struggle against racism did was show me that you should have known better but gleefully used this most painful of experiences as a dishonest debating tool regardless.

You know, its not worth it, I’m just sticking you on the ignore list.

Ghost

No chance a few of you hatched the past 2/3 days' scurrilous personal attacks, huh?

Y'know - like breakin' da rules?????????

Yeah right

 

[mrversatile48]

and all these hate mongers are morons who will say anything to support their uneducated prejudices. There is nothing like attempting to get science on your side in a debate, and often it is easy to fool the public into thinking that science says something it doesn't, which is essentially what the Social Darwinists, neo-nazi's and the like do with ET. It's be pretty sad, and please don't be sucked into their trap of believing that evolution says those sorts of things otherwise you are just as deluded as they are.

If I was a Scouse comedian I'd say, as Shakespeare...

"Methinks the lady doth protest too much!"

But I ask ya..

Can you picture Shakespeare in Scouse??

Now dat is a great title for a Broadway Musical...

Forsooth!

Ian

 

[Jet Black]

removed rant

 

[mrversatile48]

can we please not derail this thread, if people want to talk about politics or whatever, do so in another thread, thankyou.

..never derailed a thing!

Mind you...

he was a lorry driver (Morpeth Dock depot)

Kinda hard to derail a truck...

 

[mrversatile48]

in case you missed it the first time:

Many folk have said, in my long years of using different stations' great acoustics for my regular Town Crier tours, that such folk, despite many loudspeakers, manage to muffle every word, whilst I - a trained actor - unamplified, get every word as clear as a bell!!

Now..

if only my ancient memory banks could recall what we were discussing.. :o

Is my metamorphosis into Victor Meldrew prima facie evidence of..

er...

?????


He Give Us Songs in the Night

"Because of the multitude of oppressions they cry out;
They cry for help because of the arm of the mighty.

"But no one says, 'Where is God my Maker,
Who gives songs in the night,

Who teaches us more than the beasts of the earth
And makes us wiser than the birds of the heavens?'

Job 35:9-11 NASB

Now say the birds & the beasts are off topic, why don't you???

Ee-bah-gum-Ian

 

[Aron-Ra]

I have examined and addressed all that were presented and found all wanting as overwhelming evidence.

You lie. You did not examine or address my questions to you, and in them I promised you would find the overwhelming evidence you were looking for.

 

[lucaspa]

For now, another instant event, & more on how to progress & not decay...

@ least 3 top lawyers, separately, began quests to disprove the Resurrection of Christ

During research, all 3 became born-againChristians

So? Since evolution isn't atheism, what does this have to do with evolution or science? See the second quote in my signature.

 

[mrversatile48]

You lie. You did not examine or address my questions to you, and in them I promised you would find the overwhelming evidence you were looking for.

..Razz is 1 of the best posters in the whole CvE board

Can't say da same for you tho'

Jesus said that Satan is the "father of lies"

Your handle wouldn't be a pathetic demand to be worshipped as the phoney pagan occult sun-god Ra, by any chance?

Or a priest of a Ra cult, ape-ing Aaron?

(Just to keep it subtly on topic)

"Play nice, girls"

..as the great philosopher Steven Seagal said...

with such feeling!

(Or was it the far greater Mayor of Carmel?

Clint E to his fans)

 

[lucaspa]

Any who know Barnabas Trust work for the Persecuted Church worldwide may well have heard director Patrick Sookhdeo say, "God made only 1 race: the human race"

Unfortunately, many creationists disagree with Mr. Trust. Creationism was, and is, a major justification for racism. See a partial list of publications at the end of the post.

I saw & heard Trotskyite agitators spread their class war propaganda, to exploit racial tensions for their own ambitious ends

Now you are starting to get it. Racism will corrupt any other idea for its own ends.

Surely there's hardly a Brit unaware of news media highlighting BNP agitators call Africans/Asians sub-human

I'm sure. Now, you imply that they use evolution as their justification. But the issue is: is the justification correct? Does evolution, as it is accurately understood, really justify racism? The answer is a resounding "NO!" So what we have is a misuse of evolution. Just like you would, I presume, say that the following people are misusing creation.

Isaac de la Peyere, Preadamitae, 1655, English edition, Men Before Adam, 1656. Peyere was a French theologian and Huguenot. The book claimed that Adam was not the first man and that the Bible is not the history of mankind, but only the history of the Jews. He was censured by the Pope but kept looking for support for his theory. Part of his rationale came from his interpretation of Paul's Epistle to the Romans. His pre-Adamite theory later became the basis for 19th century theories of polygenism and modern racism. You can see the thread yourself in the works below--other races not descended from Adam, just the white race. A discussion of this work can be found in Encycl. Judaica, 1972. So the idea of races did not originate with Darwin, but with a card-carrying Christian. And the concept of racism came over 200 years *before* Origin of the Species was written.
Charles Carrol The Negro a Beast; or, In the Image of God, 1900 American Book and Bible House. "The Negro created a beast, but created with articulate speech, and hands, that he may be of service to his master -- the White man" "All scientific investigation of the subject proves the Negro to be an ape, and that he simply stands at the head of the ape family." (of course, he is wrong about the science, since evolution shows all the races to belong to the same species) Genesis prohibits mating with "beasts" [Negroes]: they were created a different "kind". God destroyed mankind in the worldwide Flood because man had corrupted his kind by amalgamation with Negro beasts. Negroes were taken on the Ark along with other animals. Has a chapter "The Theory of Evolution Exploded; Man was Created a Man, and Did Not Develop from an Ape" Says there are only 2 origin theories, and they are in "absolute conflict": biblical creation and atheistic evolution.
The Carrol book was so "good" that it served as the basis of a Destiny Publishers book, In the Image of God, 1967, Destiny Publishers. "The Bible stands as an impregnable bulwark against Christendom's modern slogan that all men, regardless of color, are blood brothers ... The simple truth regarding the origin of races demonstrates conclusively that the Negroes and the white race do not have a common ancestry." (quite a contrast to evolution, which says they do and are the same species) The book goes on to cite many Bible passages proving the "beasts" are bipedal servants of "man" and distinct from other animals. Presents scientific evidence of physiological differences which demonstrates that Negroes were created to be beasts of burden. Cites A Hislop's The Two Babylons, 1916, to prove that Nimrod--founder of all false religions--was black. The "atheistical theory of evolution" is a "spurious doctrine" which aligned itself with apostasy and led to "disbelief in the scientifically accurate but simply-worded statements of the Bible."
Walter T. Galusha Fossils and the Word of God, 1964, Exposition Press. God divided man into four colors and wants them to stay separate. The Devil, however, "will try to get them to unite and in this way defeat God's purpose." Is standard creationist fare for the rest, including support for creation of Adam and Eve and Noah's Flood (2130 BC according to book).
Gottlieb C.H. Hasskarl, The Missing link, or, the Negroes Ethnological Status, 1898, Democratic News. The title says it all. Hasskarl also wrote The Terrible Catastrophe, or, Biblical Deluge; illustrated and corroborated by mythology, tradition, and geology, to which is added a brief interpretation of the creation, with notes from theologians, philosophers, and scientists.
James Laurence Hutton, Acts: Deluge--The Other Cheek and the Dragon, 1969, Priv. pub. Cain's evil race mixed with Seth's (the Sons of God), corrupting their blood. "The Bible proves that when races mix, it is a perfect set-up for Satan."
Charles Lee Magne, The Negro and the World Crisis, 1974, New Christian Crusade Church. Explicitly states that KJV is inerrant. There is a Jewish conspiracy to destroy the White Nordic Israel race by using "Negroes". Whites are descended from Adam, but Negroes are the top animals--members of the ape family and are a pre-Adamic creation. His creationists tendencies are shown by favorable quotations of Rousas J. Rushdoony, author of The Mythology of Science and instrumental in getting Whitcomb and Morris' Genesis Flood published.
W. Clyde Odeneal, Segregation: Sin or Sensible?, 1958, Destiny Publishers as a reprint of original article in Destiny magazine. Asserts that God created races after their own kind; nature attests to this "Divine Law" "Segregation is an Anglo-Saxon principle because more than all the other races combined, the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and related races are predominantly the Bible-reading, Bible-disseminating peoples of the world." States that "miscegenation was the principle [sic] sin which brought on the great flood of antiquity." Says that racial equality is a communist notion; notes that leading anti-segregationists are non- or anti-Christian. And give the de riguer anatomical differences between whites and blacks.
B.H. Payne, The Negro: What Is His Ethnological Status?, 1867. Carroll cites this one as the originator of the theory that Genesis describes a pre-Adamic creation of "Negroes". According to Payne, Negroes are the most cunning of the "beasts" and were "created" to be servants of the Adamic (white) race.
Keen Polk Everything After Its Kind (pamphlet), 1932, private publication. "A new and critical study of the origin of the Negro, according to Holy Scriptures." Keen thinks that blacks are the "beasts of the field" of Genesis. The Adamic line (whites again) interbred with the blacks as referred to the sons of God and daughters of men of Genesis 6. Reads Leviticus as specifying the death penalty for sexual relations with "beasts", who are the "Negroes" of Keen's definition. "The Negro has been put here upon earth by God for some purpose. We may rest assured that purpose was not racial or social equality."
Alfred Rosenberg, Myth of the Twentieth Century, 1930 (latest edition 1982, Noontide Press) Rosenberg was the official Nazi philosopher and editor of the nazi newspaper Der Volkische Beobachter. Rosenberg presents a racial view of history. God created man as separate races--not as individuals or mankind as a whole. Only the race has a soul, and no two have the same soul. The higher races must rule over the lower, not interbreed with them. Cross-breeding destroys the literally divine combination of physical heredity and spirit. Rosenberg "proves" Egyptian, Libyan, and Indian rulers were pure Nordics. Jesus was also a pure Nordic untainted by Jewish blood.
Alexander Schiffner, The Origin of the Races; and Pre-Adamic Man, 1968, Prophetic Herald. According to Schiffner, once again the "Negro" is the "beast" of Genesis, and was created, along with "the yellow race" before Adam. Once again with Genesis 6, Schiffner says that the "sons of God"--the white men--mated with Negroes. God punished them for this sin with the worldwide Flood, but Negroes (presumably a pair) were taken on the Ark with the "other" animals.
Alfred P.K.E. Schultz, Race or Mongrel, 1908, L.C. Page. "A brief history of the rise and fall of the ancient races of earth; a theory that the fall of nations is due to intermarriage with alien stocks; a demonstration that a nation's strength is due to racial purity; a prophecy that America will sink to early decay unless immigration is rigorously restricted. Schultz also wrote The End of Darwinism: Not Change But Persistence is Characteristic of Life.
Gerald Burton Winrod, Science, Christ and the Bible, 1929, Fleming H. Revell. This book is based upon Winrod's sermons. Winrod was described by Marsden as a vocal anti-Communist, anti-Semitic, and pro-Nazi fundamentalist. "Between the proved facts of science and the truth of Christianity there is perfect harmony, but between the guesses of scientists and the dogma of religionists there is discord." "Noah prophesied that Ham's descendants --the black race -- would be a servant people." Says that Nimrod was black. Favors the Anglo-Israel doctrine that America and England descended from the Israelite tribes of Mannasseh and Ephraim.