Challenges Unique to the U.S.

[Resha Caner]

Do you see any challenges for Lutheranism that are unique to the U.S.?

As an example to help you understand what I'm asking, I just finished reading a history of Catholicism in the U.S. A theme that emerged from that book was the struggle of explaining the U.S. to Rome. In the Spanish and French empires of the Americas, Rome could essentially interact with Catholics in the same way they did in Europe ... they were used to the unique issues related to Spain and France. However, those empires collapsed and Catholics in the U.S. were living in a Protestant (primarily Puritan) culture. Since Rome continued to view the Americas as a mission field (which it largely had been in the Spanish and French empires), and because they thought Catholic communities were autonomous rather than under pressure to conform to a Protestant culture (it's somewhat a myth that places like Maryland were Catholic colonies), they expected everything to flow from Rome to the Americas and were never open to adapting to the unique situation in the Americas...

... at least that's the way it was at one time. I don't know Rome's current approach.

I've similarly read histories of mainstream Protestantism in the U.S. and they have their unique challenges as well.

But, while Lutherans shared some of the problems of Catholics (i.e. they mistakenly assumed they would be allowed more autonomy than was the case, and felt cultural pressure to conform) and some of the problems of mainstream Protestantism (i.e. getting dragged into the political climate of thinking the U.S. was the New Israel), I'm wondering if there is anything unique to Lutheran theology that poses challenges unique to Lutheranism.

Any thoughts?

 

[Halbhh]

Since the 500th anniversary came around of Luther nailing his thesis to the church door, we had Ephesians 2:8-9 repeatedly as the verse of the month through many months of 2017, and each time I thought: this needs verse 10.

It's a possibly unique to Lutheranism challenge that: because Luther recovered the truth of salvation by grace not works (such as in Ephesians 2:1-9) when it was so needed in the 16th century, that now, 500 years later, we might have a possibility to get tripped up in the false-gospel popular in the U.S. of grace without fruits, commonly used in the new variants (as I think of them) of prosperity gospel, where putatively warning people that their works do not save them, do not justify them (that is 100% true), that we then fall over into that modern American fad/false gospel of forgetting things Christ said, and claiming it's all "finished" as if to cancel and delete things Christ said.

But.

I don't think we will, generally. In actual practice, I see fruits in our church, suggesting we are adequately insulated from the fads.

 

[Resha Caner]

... grace without fruits ...

Good point ... maybe because that fits with some of my Two Kingdoms concerns.

 

[FireDragon76]

Lutherans have never been ones to be especially known for being "fruit pickers". That is the way of Methodism and Puritanism, but not Lutheranism. This is not to say we should not be responsible with our Christian freedom in the world, but we are not the types to think somebody is not a true Christian just because they do not conform to our ideals of practice.

We do indeed have similar challenges to Catholics. Americanism threatens to swallow up our religion into a generic American evangelicalism. One of the issues of contention with my own congregation is how little it is actually Lutheran, and how much some folks want to make it uncritically "evangelical" and blend in with American religion. We sing their hymns, use their lingo, and uncritically adopt their attitudes towards religion.

I was blunt with my pastor the other day, American evangelicalism is spiritual poison. I no longer believe it is simply "another way of being Christian", but that it is highly defective and distorts the Gospel. There is a reason young people in the US are leaving churches. We've had the same fruit-picking message throughout Church history. This is the stuff that crushes peoples souls and does not give them the grace of the Gospel. This is the reason so many young people associate Christianity with moralism at best, and cruelty and barbarism at worst. It is the true scandal. Not a few presumed lazy pew sitters, many of whom have hidden challenges and struggles and deserve our sympathy far more.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No. Nothing unique to the US. The challenges are the same here and elsewhere.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Do you see any challenges for Lutheranism that are unique to the U.S.?

OK guys I'm an ex-Lutheran, I was WELS Catechized, and born and baptized in an independent Missouri church (the church left when liberals tried to take over the seminary in the late 50s to early 60s). My parents are still devout WELS folks.


I got a lot to say on the topic!

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the peer pressure for de-Germanification that happened around the time of both World Wars. That I think had a big impact on American Lutheran culture and church practice!


But by and large I don't think Lutherans had as much problems as Catholics. The reason I say this is the Anglican/ Episcopal Church was well represented in America since Colonial days. So I don't think there was much that was weird about Lutherans looking too Catholic etc. since the Anglicans got them beat there.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I was blunt with my pastor the other day, American evangelicalism is spiritual poison. I no longer believe it is simply "another way of being Christian", but that it is highly defective and distorts the Gospel. There is a reason young people in the US are leaving churches. We've had the same fruit-picking message throughout Church history. This is the stuff that crushes peoples souls and does not give them the grace of the Gospel. This is the reason so many young people associate Christianity with moralism at best, and cruelty and barbarism at worst. It is the true scandal. Not a few presumed lazy pew sitters, many of whom have hidden challenges and struggles and deserve our sympathy far more.

There is a term for professing Lutherans, its kind of the most Orthodox, "true to Luther" by Creed as it can be. It has a name in Latin. Anyway there are 18 points that make up that term, some of them are familiar. e.g. -Like Luther recommending that personal confession is helpful. But others are not. Things like that saint Mary "was an ever virgin", and that she is "the Mother of God".

Anyway in Catechism class, we learned some of those things like the personal confession one was mentioned off hand at least once, but things related to Mary that looked to Catholic were definitely not! The teaching pretty much fit the mainstream Evangelical end of things.


Anyway a decade of so, I did some reading on Lutheranism, and I read in Germany in the 1800s there was a merger of the one of the big Lutheran bodies with the German Calvinists, and that merger had a lot of ramifications for Lutheranism in American, where Lutheranism became Calvinized. Looking back, I think I can see some evidence of that, many times Lutheran pastors prefered doing the Liturgy in a business suit instead of a robe/cassock. I was taught Cessationism of the miracles and other supernatural gifts as part of Catechism. From my readings, I don't see Luther actually taking a dogmatic stand against that. Infact, he supposedly experimented praying the prayer of Faith a few times when his friends needed to healed, but John Calvin did take a dogmatic stand on that issue! (He took a tentative hypothesis of Saint Augustine that the gifts were mostly meant to launch the church, and made it into an absolute).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

I think Lutheranism and other traditional Protestant denominations took a beating from the various Church movements that started in the US during the 20th Century, that emphasized informality in worship. e.g. The Jesus movement, Pentecostal and Charismatic movement, Revivals, the various hipster rock and roll churches that are present nowadays etc.. Informality runs deep in American culture, as far back as Alexis de Toqueville classic "Democracy in America" circa 1820 or so which specifically commented on that and other similar traits.

 

[LizaMarie]

There is a term for professing Lutherans, its kind of the most Orthodox, "true to Luther" by Creed as it can be. It has a name in Latin. Anyway there are 18 points that make up that term, some of them are familiar. e.g. -Like Luther recommending that personal confession is helpful. But others are not. Things like that saint Mary "was an ever virgin", and that she is "the Mother of God".

Anyway in Catechism class, we learned some of those things like the personal confession one was mentioned off hand at least once, but things related to Mary that looked to Catholic were definitely not! The teaching pretty much fit the mainstream Evangelical end of things.


Anyway a decade of so, I did some reading on Lutheranism, and I read in Germany in the 1800s there was a merger of the one of the big Lutheran bodies with the German Calvinists, and that merger had a lot of ramifications for Lutheranism in American, where Lutheranism became Calvinized. Looking back, I think I can see some evidence of that, many times Lutheran pastors prefered doing the Liturgy in a business suit instead of a robe/cassock. I was taught Cessationism of the miracles and other supernatural gifts as part of Catechism. From my readings, I don't see Luther actually taking a dogmatic stand against that. Infact, he supposedly experimented praying the prayer of Faith a few times when his friends needed to healed, but John Calvin did take a dogmatic stand on that issue! (He took a tentative hypothesis of Saint Augustine that the gifts were mostly meant to launch the church, and made it into an absolute).

I can attest to the cessationism as I am also WELS(inquiring East) but I've been in a WELS church for over 25 years( and attended a LCMS from around 10-15) and fortunately all our pastors have always worn robes! That's kind of a sticking point for me. If one preached in a suit I'd be upset. (We've had 4 pastors in our current church)

 

[Pavel Mosko]

After parting ways with Lutheranism, I did notice a little more positive view of the possibility of miracles and such from my father. And on that sort of thing, my father is pretty much a true blue by the pulpit kind of guy, and both of my parents are very good at knowing what the official party line of the church is on various issues etc. And of course this sort of thing would come up, because I've gone to my share of Charismatic churches besides Orthodox and other Eastern churches, Anyway my dad's WELS church is in South, San Jose CA. It's a little unusual, unlike most churches, I've seen it has a concrete cobble stone type floor. And the church went through a renovation process, redoing a bunch of stuff. It might of had to do with parochial school, since that is one big thing the church does is have a kindergarten through HS school.

Anyway as part of the renovation they had to jack hammer up a large section of the floor, but somewhere near the end of the process the rented jack hammer stopped working, and that was going to up set their time table for the project, and their budget etc. So someone gave the senior pastor the bad news, and He said, "What do you mean the jack hammer stopped working?" He inspected the jack hammer and told the folks around "We are going to pray for the jack hammer to start working". And the little group did, I'm sure the prayer was the sort of dignified prayer that you typically hear from Lutherans. But Lo and behold, when they went to the jack hammer afterwards and tried it, it started up and they were able to complete their project that day.

 

[Resha Caner]

Lutherans have never been ones to be especially known for being "fruit pickers". That is the way of Methodism and Puritanism, but not Lutheranism. This is not to say we should not be responsible with our Christian freedom in the world, but we are not the types to think somebody is not a true Christian just because they do not conform to our ideals of practice.

We do indeed have similar challenges to Catholics. Americanism threatens to swallow up our religion into a generic American evangelicalism. One of the issues of contention with my own congregation is how little it is actually Lutheran, and how much some folks want to make it uncritically "evangelical" and blend in with American religion. We sing their hymns, use their lingo, and uncritically adopt their attitudes towards religion.

I was blunt with my pastor the other day, American evangelicalism is spiritual poison. I no longer believe it is simply "another way of being Christian", but that it is highly defective and distorts the Gospel. There is a reason young people in the US are leaving churches. We've had the same fruit-picking message throughout Church history. This is the stuff that crushes peoples souls and does not give them the grace of the Gospel. This is the reason so many young people associate Christianity with moralism at best, and cruelty and barbarism at worst. It is the true scandal. Not a few presumed lazy pew sitters, many of whom have hidden challenges and struggles and deserve our sympathy far more.

I agree with what you've said ... which is rare between you and me. I don't want to introduce something that makes Lutheran churches susceptible to these problems. In fact, I'm looking for something that is (politically) independent of a specific synod, etc.

There is, however, IMO a flipside problem with the Lutheran approach. Essentially, most are sheep who look to the pastor to do and/or bless any "Lutheran" activity. As such, when they leave church on Sunday morning, they perceive everything they encounter for the rest of the week as "not-Lutheran". The idea of vocation is completely missing from their lives. Further, those who might be so inclined to adhere to an idea of vocation in their lives get zero support from their fellow Lutherans. As such, they turn to other church-goers (which becomes other churches) for that support.

So, I don't see this as a problem that synods or pastors need to fix. It's a problem lay people need to fix. That is indeed a problem all Lutherans face - American or not - but I wonder if there are particularly American obstacles that American Lutherans face when approaching ideas of vocation. As I type I wonder if that problem is simply the pervasiveness of the American Evangelical community you mention. For example, I love filmmaking. So, when I talk about making films with Christian themes (which is a long digression of a discussion) the answer I get is, "Well, that's what the Kendrick brothers are doing."

Umm ... no. Nothing against their films. I actually like some of their material. But, no. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about Letters to Father Jacob, etc. And to that I usually get a reaction of, "Huh? What movie is that?" Yeah. Exactly.

 

[Resha Caner]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the peer pressure for de-Germanification that happened around the time of both World Wars. That I think had a big impact on American Lutheran culture and church practice!

Yes, that is a big factor, and I'm aware of it. Losing German language (cultural, historical) expressions of Lutheranism is a problem. There are other interesting issues like that. I was fascinated to read about Muhlenberg's struggles to figure out how to incorporate a church in the New World.

But I'm more interested in the lay aspect (Kingdom of the Left), not the preaching/teaching aspect (Kingdom of the Right). I supposed I should have made that clearer in the OP.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

But I'm more interested in the lay aspect (Kingdom of the Left), not the preaching/teaching aspect (Kingdom of the Right). I supposed I should have made that clearer in the OP.

I believe the term you are looking for is called "Praxis". Praxis is how people live out their spiritual lives, it is what they "practice". Contrasted with "Doxa" which relates to the doctrinal expression of faith., colloquially speaking.

 

[FireDragon76]

I believe the term you are looking for is called "Praxis". Praxis is how people live out their spiritual lives, it is what they "practice". Contrasted with "Doxa" which relates to the doctrinal expression of faith., colloquially speaking.

Lutheranism, unlike Orthodoxy, is not define by praxis.

Vocation is much more flexible than the Orthodox notion of orienting ones life around monastic ideals to achieve theosis. The closest Orthodox concept to vocation that I have encountered is diakonia.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree with what you've said ... which is rare between you and me. I don't want to introduce something that makes Lutheran churches susceptible to these problems. In fact, I'm looking for something that is (politically) independent of a specific synod, etc.

There is, however, IMO a flipside problem with the Lutheran approach. Essentially, most are sheep who look to the pastor to do and/or bless any "Lutheran" activity. As such, when they leave church on Sunday morning, they perceive everything they encounter for the rest of the week as "not-Lutheran". The idea of vocation is completely missing from their lives. Further, those who might be so inclined to adhere to an idea of vocation in their lives get zero support from their fellow Lutherans. As such, they turn to other church-goers (which becomes other churches) for that support.

So, I don't see this as a problem that synods or pastors need to fix. It's a problem lay people need to fix. That is indeed a problem all Lutherans face - American or not - but I wonder if their are particularly American obstacles that American Lutherans face when approaching ideas of vocation. As I type I wonder if that problem is simply the pervasiveness of the American Evangelical community you mention. For example, I love filmmaking. So, when I talk about making films with Christian themes (which is a long digression of a discussion) the answer I get is, "Well, that's what the Kendrick brothers are doing.".

When I think of "Lutheran" films I think of stuff like Lars and the Real Girl or Babette's Feast. I'm guessing alot of folks in the US, outside of Lutheranism, wouldn't even recognize those as having any spiritual themes. We're so used to Christian films being preachy and moralistic. Whereas both the aformentioned films are much more meditative.

 

[Resha Caner]

... Babette's Feast ...

Excellent film.

I'm guessing alot of folks in the US, outside of Lutheranism, wouldn't even recognize those as having any spiritual themes. We're so used to Christian films being preachy and moralistic. Whereas both the aformentioned films are much more meditative.

Yep. Exactly the problem I've encountered both inside and outside of Lutheranism. But also a problem that I think extends beyond my particular bent. It's a problem that exists for engineers, accountants, hairdressers, and lawyers as well.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've never encountered the notion that Lutherans are cessationists - we certainly do believe in miracles and "divine intervention". I think that the term cessationism isn't particularly helpful in describing Lutherans general disinterest in Charismatic or Pentecostal religion, which stems from much deeper theological issues.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

've never encountered the notion that Lutherans are cessationists - we certainly do believe in miracles and "divine intervention". I think that the term cessationism isn't particularly helpful in describing Lutherans general disinterest in Charismatic or Pentecostal religion, which stems from much deeper theological issues.

I'm saying that because that is what my WELS pastor said at the start around 1979 back at his home church (Victorville). My confirmation was different than most peoples, I lived in a small desert city called Ridgecrest in CA. At the time we had no other conservative Lutheran churches in the area other than the one we had been attending. There was a nasty church split over a controversy (the senior pastor, an independent former Missouri synod guy, was pushing people two double tithe to support expansion of the parochial school).

For a short time, we did devotions for Sunday my father used WELS Bible study materials and we listened to some sermons that were mailed to us. But we eventually started to commute to church for almost 2 years to another high desert city called Victorville that was almost 100 miles away.

Anyway my Catechism class was unusually long, both from the commute but also after the 1st year we began Catechism in my hometown of Ridgecrest. But there was another problem in my 2nd year and 3rd year we suffered bad luck because it was only me and a local girl. And we had a tendency to get sick a lot during this time, and if that happened it meant Catechism class would be cancelled.

Anyway the lengthy amount of time did give us a way to thoroughly cover the official WELS position on various issues. On the issue of supernatural gifts it was loud and clear that "They were given to launch the Church and died out with the last apostles". Now in my 2nd and 3rd year that message might have been emphasized a bit more since we had a church plant/mission to start a WELS church in Ridgecrest and we happened to be renting space from the local Church of God. But it was consistent throughout my Catechism, and that theme also appeared in various WELS commentaries on the various books of the NT. And it came up as official commentary during the class, as we walked through most of the NT, but especially the Book of Acts and the Pauline epistles.


PS - It also seems my parents had similar views before this coming from Missouri synod! My mom especially.

 

[FireDragon76]

One challenge I think is that in Europe, typically churches are funded as public institutions and people want them to be there, even if they don't go all that often. In the US, they are often more like private associations or "clubs" in peoples minds, and public funding is just not there. That doesn't fit real well with how Lutheranism actually works. As I pointed out in another thread, throughout most history, people dropped in and out of the church if they were not compelled to go, responding to various needs they had in their lives.

 

[kdm1984]

Another challenge is the influence of decision theology (Arminianism) in most Christian branches. I have many issues with Calvinists, but one area where Luths and Calvs agree is that we don't inherently "choose" to follow God, God chooses us. This mindset is completely foreign to most other American Protestants, who think you choose God and that you need to be running into every street corner to make converts pick God. The difference between the Lutheran view of monergism and, say, the independent fundamental Baptist view of getting everyone to do the Romans road, "win souls," and make a public proclamation to faith, is immense (I always found it funny that the IFB were naive enough to think they could win massive multitudes to faith with the right gimmicks, and yet their churches seldom grew -- they are oblivious to the fact that most Americans are heading secular, and few secular men want to lead, while few women want to dress in ankle-length skirts -- you can't be separate from the world, while thinking you are also converting the world en masse; there is no Biblical or contextual precedent for this, and it also violates basic empirical logic!).