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Challenge: What is Communist in the US?

Skeptic90

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Go live in North Korea for a couple of years, come back, and ask again.

Or even easier, go find some people who came here from Soviet Russia, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Maoist China, or North Vietnam, and ask them why they left there to come here. Ask them if there's any difference between living there and living here, or if it's "just another political ideology".

Yes, but there are different brands of communism. Heres a good list:
Marxism
Leninism
Trotskyism
Maoism
Juche
Left communism
Luxemburgism
Council communism · Titoism
Stalinism
Castroism
Guevarism
Hoxhaism
Anarchist communism
Religious communism
Christian communism
Eurocommunism
World communism
Stateless communism
National communism

I reject communism because it needs the element of competition which capitalism has. Socialism, communism, anarchism, capitalism: they are all ideas.

My point is why all the dismissal of opinion about communism. Like saying anything pro-communism is like a virus or something.

Think of it this way: once you are declared insane, then anything you do is called part of that insanity. Your protests are called denial, fears are called paranoia. Its a no win situation. Calling someone crazy is dismissive. Being communist is crazy.
 
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TheNewWorldMan

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Go live in North Korea for a couple of years, come back, and ask again.

Or even easier, go find some people who came here from Soviet Russia, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Maoist China, or North Vietnam, and ask them why they left there to come here. Ask them if there's any difference between living there and living here, or if it's "just another political ideology".

Oh, plenty of difference. But it's not really germane to contemporary American politics. We still have no serious political movement from the true Left. As has often been said before, political contests in America are pretty much between the center-Right and the center. The far Right is marginalized, and the far Left is pretty much restricted to tables handing out pamphlets on college campuses.

But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Real communism is not possible; Marxism is at odds with human nature. You will never have a defocused, decentralized dictatorship. But enough people have tried implementing their interpretation of it--and failed spectacularly--that people ought to stop trying it already.

The 20th century taught us rather conclusively that mixed economies are the best way to go. Mostly private ownership with public regulation. Works best.
 
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chaz345

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Yes, but there are different brands of communism. Heres a good list:
Marxism
Leninism
Trotskyism
Maoism
Juche
Left communism
Luxemburgism
Council communism · Titoism
Stalinism
Castroism
Guevarism
Hoxhaism
Anarchist communism
Religious communism
Christian communism
Eurocommunism
World communism
Stateless communism
National communism

I reject communism because it needs the element of competition which capitalism has. Socialism, communism, anarchism, capitalism: they are all ideas.

My point is why all the dismissal of opinion about communism. Like saying anything pro-communism is like a virus or something.

Think of it this way: once you are declared insane, then anything you do is called part of that insanity. Your protests are called denial, fears are called paranoia. Its a no win situation. Calling someone crazy is dismissive. Being communist is crazy.

Why is there such a negative opinion of communism? Because, quite simply, no matter where it's been tried,on a large nation sized scale, no matter what flavor of it we're talking about, it's failed miserably.

I say large nation sized scale because in relatively small groups, it, or something very similar, can work quite well. I know they aren't a perfect example, but the Amish have a very socialistic/communistic way of doing things and it works. But it works because the group is small enough so that if you choose to slack off, you can see the negative results in the lives of people you know and care about.
 
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BoltNut

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Thank you.

You're welcome. ;)


(Re: Health Care Plan) Okay, the plan itself is not Socialist. The problem many can see is that the way it will be implemented will have "negative" results. Many health plans currently used by smaller businesses will no longer be able to be offered or utilized. Some businesses would rather pay the fines imposed by government for not having a health plan, since the fines are cheaper than the insurance premiums. Due to increased premiums caused by things like the "pre-existing condition" changes, etc, fewer options will be available or affordable. More and more people will end up on the government plan. Sort of like becoming "Socialized Medicine" by default. Granted, this is not a "Socialist" program as it stands. Let's say it is more fear as to what it may become.

No, the government is regulating resources, but not allocating them. It is relying on the free market to allocate the resources. This is not Socialism.

Looking at 'cap and trade' on the surface, I'd agree that it isn't "Socialist". I was stating that "some would make the case" that it could be seen as socialistic. I find that it is far too complicated to assign such a label. I, personally, just don't like the idea.

I think it should. I think it is a Conservative program, it relies on a free market to develop alternatives by creating an incentive to do so. Additionally, it would tremendously boost industries like the Nuclear industry, which would be good for America. I can make a VERY good argument for Cap-and-Trade, using Conservative principles.

It would really depend on what the final plan consists of. The Waxman-Markey bill would be preferable to the Kerry-Boxer bill. The Kerry-Boxer bill would mandate reducing CO2 levels in 2050 by 80% and channel the money to "Homeland Security and Jobs Programs". The plan Obama envisions uses the money for alternative energy programs to reduce our dependence on oil. The biggest problem I see with cap and trade are the consumer cost estimates. Administration figures and figures from other annalists differ greatly.

But we are not. Nothing you mentioned was Socialist.

Nothing we have been discussing is 100% Socialist. When I say "socialistic", I'm saying that something has elements that appear to be socialist in nature. I'm speaking more in trend. The more government gets involved in things that have always been private, it's a 'trend' toward socialism. If this government did have policies that were indeed Socialist, we would basically be a country governed by Socialism. We can get really "close" to socialism without being Socialist. By using regulations, taxes, subsidies, entitlements and the like, we can have a situation where the result appears to some to be much like Socialism, but it wouldn't necessarily be Socialism. It's a little difficult to explain without using some generalities, but I hope my ideas are coming through clear enough.

No, Socialism requires government money, and if there is no money, it is unlikely the government would try to allocate resources or control industries.

All they have to do is raise taxes, borrow more or just print what they need. I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek here. If things continue as they are with big spending government programs, businesses won't be able to afford to stay in business. Government would almost have to step in to "save our economy". ;)
 
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Wolseley

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But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Actually, those are examples of "real" Communism, being places where it's actually been tried. It's only in the academic realm of spiffy ideas to be tossed around in a college classroom or a Vienna coffeehouse where it has any validity, not in the real world.

Communism is like Prohibition. It's a swell idea, but in real life, it won't work.

My point is why all the dismissal of opinion about communism. Like saying anything pro-communism is like a virus or something.

In my case, it's because Communism means living with nine other people in a three-room apartment with a leaky roof and bad plumbing, and working in a communal factory gutting fish for fourteen hours a day at six cents a week while the Party Commissar stands behind you to make sure you don't open your mouth against the working conditions.

That's what makes Communism a virus to me---a really nasty one. I want nothing to do with it.

Real communism is not possible; Marxism is at odds with human nature. You will never have a defocused, decentralized dictatorship. But enough people have tried implementing their interpretation of it--and failed spectacularly--that people ought to stop trying it already.

The 20th century taught us rather conclusively that mixed economies are the best way to go. Mostly private ownership with public regulation. Works best.

I quite agree.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Go live in North Korea for a couple of years, come back, and ask again.

Or even easier, go find some people who came here from Soviet Russia, Eastern Europe, Cuba, Maoist China, or North Vietnam, and ask them why they left there to come here. Ask them if there's any difference between living there and living here, or if it's "just another political ideology".

But, but, but those are not examples of "real" communism. The only problem with communism or socialism is that it's never been done with the right people in charge.
[/end sarcasm]

Many Socialists disagree. They believe that Russia under Stalin was a manifestation of totalitarian State Capitalism. And China today a 'Communist' country?? As for Cuba and NK, most modern Socialists also believe in democracy, something that these countries lack. There are few examples of 'real' authentic and working communism.

In my case, it's because Communism means living with nine other people in a three-room apartment with a leaky roof and bad plumbing, and working in a communal factory gutting fish for fourteen hours a day at six cents a week while the Party Commissar stands behind you to make sure you don't open your mouth against the working conditions.

That's what makes Communism a virus to me---a really nasty one. I want nothing to do with it.

That's what Communism means to you. What Communism means to a Communist, however, might be quite different.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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All I am saying is that a Socialist looking at a Communist would say about the same thing as the one cited in your post. In theory, he's not identifing another socialist in this scenario. I'm playing "devils advocate" here, so don't get the impression that I think Obama is a Communist. I, personally, don't see Obama as a socialist or a communist. I see him as a bit of a "leftist". Take that for whatever it's worth, I just hate to label people. We are all more complex than any "label" people put on us.



Actually, turning them over to the workers would be what a Communist would do, not a socialist. I don't consider myself to be "far" right, but I still see his policies as being pretty darn "far left". Socialism? No, that would be a little extreme.



It's one thing to be a Socialist, and quite another to actually enact Socialist policies. A President cannot propose legislation. He can really only sign it or veto it. He can propose an idea and work to get it written up as a policy and then get someone in Congress to sponsor the bill, but that's about all he can do. With the Congress he has at present, it would be much easier for that to happen than if there were a Republican majority. What the President "believes" in his own mind, means little to me. He was elected by the people for whatever reason and there is nothing I can do to change that. I scrutinize all Presidents for what they do, or try to do, while in office. Personally, I don't believe the direction of this administration is in the best interest of the future of America. For the record, I wasn't crazy about the Bush administration either.



Of course a Marxist would say that. They are, basically, Communist and not Socialist. Anything short of handing everything over to the workers is unsatisfactory to them.

While I do agree that Obama is on the political left, I do not believe that he is far enough to be classified as a 'Socialist'. His economic policies indicate an interesting, sometimes suggestive, relationship with business, but certainly not a 'Socialist' relationship. His social policies are sometimes even at odds with what most liberals believe (e.g. the gay marriage issue)! The most sensible approach is to take his policies for what they are, and then debate whether they are in the interests of the nation. Unfortunately, some Conservatives (not yourself) think that simply shouting the word 'Socialism' is grounds enough to terminate a policy or even a Presidency.

With regard to the Marxists that I spoke to it's unclear exactly whether they are Communists or Socialists. They identify themselves as 'Socialists' and rarely speak of 'Communism' itself per say. What I found interesting about them was how much they despised Obama - ironically something they share with disgruntled Conservatives. It's also quite amusing to watch: the Socialists accuse Obama of being yet another 'Capitalist thug', some Conservatives accuse him of being a Socialist or Communist. No one seems to care about the actual content of his policies; they care more for portraying his Presidency as representative of the opposition ideology.
 
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BoltNut

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While I do agree that Obama is on the political left, I do not believe that he is far enough to be classified as a 'Socialist'. His economic policies indicate an interesting, sometimes suggestive, relationship with business, but certainly not a 'Socialist' relationship. His social policies are sometimes even at odds with what most liberals believe (e.g. the gay marriage issue)! The most sensible approach is to take his policies for what they are, and then debate whether they are in the interests of the nation. Unfortunately, some Conservatives (not yourself) think that simply shouting the word 'Socialism' is grounds enough to terminate a policy or even a Presidency.

With regard to the Marxists that I spoke to it's unclear exactly whether they are Communists or Socialists. They identify themselves as 'Socialists' and rarely speak of 'Communism' itself per say. What I found interesting about them was how much they despised Obama - ironically something they share with disgruntled Conservatives. It's also quite amusing to watch: the Socialists accuse Obama of being yet another 'Capitalist thug', some Conservatives accuse him of being a Socialist or Communist. No one seems to care about the actual content of his policies; they care more for portraying his Presidency as representative of the opposition ideology.

I'm with you. I don't believe this stuff about being Communist. It's a bit "over the top". Just because he's a bit left of my own beliefs, doesn't make him Socialist either. Calling him a Capitalist thug is a real kick.

I find it interesting that my conservative brethren focus on Obama so much when, to me anyway, congress is loaded with many who are more "left" than he is. The Speaker of the House makes me want to puke every time I see her mug. She is downright scary.
 
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T

Tunderz

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We're not a communist country like a lot of republicans say. Communism is a VERY SPECIFIC THING and America doesn't fit the bill. But it's no stretch to see how some things about our government do resemble the ten planks of communism. Is that because they're secretly trying to turn us into soviet russia? No, it's just what governments do. They try to control as much about our lives as they can and they back up their power with force. For that reason, every government is going to resemble each other because all government is about control and force. Here are the ten planks of Communism:

1.Abolition of property in land and of all rents of land to public purposes.
America hasn’t overtly strayed down this path but legally speaking, you don’t own your home. You don’t hold what is known as an “allodial title” which is why the government is allowed to charge you rent (property tax) and to kick you out of your home if you don’t pay. They can take your home even if you DO pay your taxes using eminent domain.

2.A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Obviously we have a progressive/graduated income tax. More wealthy people pay more just because they are wealthy even though they use government services less.

3.Abolition of all right of inheritance.
Sort of. The government doesn’t take all of your stuff when you die but they take a good chunk of it. It’s called the estate tax but some people call it the “death tax”.

4.Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Yup. In fact you don’t even have to be a rebel. Ever heard of Asset Forfeiture? Basically up until about the year 2000, all the government had to do was establish probable cause that a piece of your property was used in a crime and YOU had to defend it as a third party. Yes you read that right. The government would sue an inanimate object and you had to defend it. Now how did this play out? If you were carrying a large sum of money in your car, the cops could assume it was used in a drug crime and seize it. Even if they don’t suspect YOU of buying or selling drugs, it’s still up to you to prove that the money was never used in a crime. Thankfully that changed a little bit in 2000. Now the burden of proof is on the government. But they still are technically suing an inanimate object and can take it from you if the object is found guilty EVEN IF YOU COMMITTED NO CRIME.

5.Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Well duh. The Federal Reserve.

6.Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
The Federal Aviation Administration, the Federal Communications Commission, and the fact that all roads are funded and maintained (just barely) by the State.

7.Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
The Federal government recently purchased General Motors. But they have their fingers all over industrial production and farming even if they don’t legally own all of it outright.

8.Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Minimum wage, labor unions, labor laws, etc…

9.Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
The abolition of a distinction between town and country is certainly happening but not for the reason cited here. Mostly it’s because the Federal government has more and more control over local governments.

10.Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Well ignoring the fact that there’s no such thing as free education, yes we do have public schools.
I disagree with your point that communism is a "very specific thing." Even the ten planks of communism are themselves concepts, principles which few "communist" countries have implemented to their fullest. That's the problem with these labels - they can be both used as accusation (on the basis of the principles, concepts being addressed) and in defense against such accusations (by applying very specific definitions to demonstrate technical non-compliance).

Indeed, your post demonstrates both fairly well - a rationale for those who would claim we are becoming "communist" (e.g. the examples you provide for each plank) and a reason for defending against such rationale by appealing to a specific technical definition (e.g. the 10 planks themselves).

In the realm of politics, or even religion for that matter, no one articulation or definition of ANY "...ist" or "...ism" will ever fully fit, or can ever fully fit - for the simple reason that no singular articulation can ever encompass all the variations that invariably exist.

For example - define "Christian." You'll get a different definition for as many people who make the attempt. Define "conservative" or "liberal" or "progressive" or "socialist" or "fascist" or... Who or what sets or defines the authorative standard for any of these - particularly when members who identify themselves as any of the above will themselves disagree on what the true standard is? Even if someone articulates a definition and many adopt it as the "standard" - there are many who identify themselves with the same name yet will adopt a different articulation as defining their particular view of same.

On this basis, it's just as easy for one side to make a charge of "...ism" and equally as easy for the other side to charge ignorance on the fomer - and both be essentially correct.

So to challenge those who claim things are "communist" with the stipulation that they demonstrate absolute adherence to a specific definition, which itself is necessarily subject to debate even among those who claim title to or knowledge of same, is little more than a canard and ruse for leveling ridicule upon them - which conveniently the OP allows.

Are we a "communist country?" Of course not. Not even communist countries are 100% communist countries - a convenient fact for some, an inconvenient fact for others - depending on the purposes of either.

Are influences at work in our country that can be labeled "communist?" Of course there are. C.F. the post quoted.

Are there persons in our country behind such influences that may or may not themselves be strictly "communist?" Sure there are. C.F. those who supported or promoted those things in the post quoted.

...all of which is why my first post in this thread was a simple "more word games..."
 
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Colin

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People use the word Communism more and more these days, and every time they do, all they are really saying is "I don't know what to say, so I am going to say something wild to hide my ignorance."

So to all those terrified of the coming Red Revolution, let's see the evidence. What is actually Communist in the US. Keep in mind your examples will be subjected to actual definitions of Communism. If you are wrong, it will be pointed out, people will talk about how you do not know what you are talking about, you will probably feel bad, and you will look foolish. This is the price of an opinion.

So where are the examples...?

As a UK citizen I look on with amazement at some of the things said by Americans in the field of politics.
When President Obama was working to get the Health Care bill passed , crazy things were said about him.
In the UK we have had a National Health Service for more than 60 years. All the political parties here support it. Does that make the UK a Communist country and all it's politicians Communists ?
 
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