Challenge for Non Mormons

[pyro457]

Below is something that I found on one of my favorite web sites.

The Book of Mormon is often dismissed as gibberish by those who have never taken the trouble to read it. In fact, its very existence poses a serious puzzle if it is not what it claims to be - an ancient record. For details, see my page on Book of Mormon Evidences. (For general background, see my Introduction to the Book of Mormon and my Introduction to the Church of Jesus Christ of, or to really dig, read the Book of Mormon online at the richest Web site of all,

Below is the Book of Mormon Challenge, an assignment that Professor Hugh Nibley at BYU sometimes gave to students in a required class on the Book of Mormon. Though it is several decades old, it still offers a challenge worth pondering. (Recently discovered [evidences for Book of Mormon authenticity should be consulted for some real excitement.) The following text is taken from the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley, Vol. 8, Ch. 11, pp. 221-2:

[font=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]"Since Joseph Smith was younger than most of you and not nearly so experienced or well-educated as any of you at the time he copyrighted the Book of Mormon, it should not be too much to ask you to hand in by the end of the semester (which will give you more time than he had) a paper of, say, five to six hundred pages in length. Call it a sacred book if you will, and give it the form of a history. Tell of a community of wandering Jews in ancient times; have all sorts of characters in your story, and involve them in all sorts of public and private vicissitudes; give them names--hundreds of them--pretending that they are real Hebrew and Egyptian names of circa 600 b.c.; be lavish with cultural and technical details--manners and customs, arts and industries, political and religious institutions, rites, and traditions, include long and complicated military and economic histories; have your narrative cover a thousand years without any large gaps; keep a number of interrelated local histories going at once; feel free to introduce religious controversy and philosophical discussion, but always in a plausible setting; observe the appropriate literary conventions and explain the derivation and transmission of your varied historical materials. "Above all, do not ever contradict yourself! For now we come to the really hard part of this little assignment. You and I know that you are making this all up--we have our little joke--but just the same you are going to be required to have your paper published when you finish it, not as fiction or romance, but as a true history! After you have handed it in you may make no changes in it (in this class we always use the first edition of the Book of Mormon); what is more, you are to invite any and all scholars to read and criticize your work freely, explaining to them that it is a sacred book on a par with the Bible. If they seem over-skeptical, you might tell them that you translated the book from original records by the aid of the Urim and Thummim--they will love that! Further to allay their misgivings, you might tell them that the original manuscript was on golden plates, and that you got the plates from an angel. Now go to work and good luck!

[/size][/font]​

 

[gort]

Anybody know how long it took for Isaac Assimov to write his book "I, Robot"?

Tolkein would be another. Just half of his first book in the series of "Lord of the Rings" might be longer than the BoM.

You get the idea...

<><

 

[Svt4Him]

Just map out Middle Earth, that would be a job. Then see how The Chronicles of Narnia are doing. Heck then write like Stephen King's The dark towers, obviously inspired.

Nope, couldn't do any of it.

 

[carolbob]

I thought I heard that it took JS 2 years to translate or write the BoM?

 

[He put me back together]

Here are a few things, some of which could apply to the Bible, not that you see anyone making this kind of "challenge" for the Bible:

So, the BOM is truly from Elohim, because it is long?

So, the BOM is the truth, because the people who publish it THINK that it is sacred? Does that also mean that the Satanic Bible is the truth? Is the Koran truth? The 8 noble truthes? The Indian caste system? New Age prophecies?

Yeah, I would have a hard time convincing people that my 600 page epic tale was from God. So did Joseph Smith, if you didn't notice.

um...eh...these names aren't actually Ancient Egyptian names, or Ancient Hebrew names. Neither are the names in the King James Bible.

Shoot me up with something that makes me think that I have some plates from God, and yeah, I'll write something that's 600 pages long in 2 years. That isn't very hard. I wrote at least 300 pages in 3 months in java last spring...and that had to work in the objective world. You wanna talk about not contradicting yourself? Try writing a little story to a computer. One man not contradicting himself is easy. 66 books by different men spanning a thousand or so years would be a trick, though.

I'm not so big on thwapping LDS folks, but you'll have to come up with something better than this. None of these things have anything to do with what the BOM really is. Incidently, though, I do believe I could fabricate a more convincing BOM...if I may be frank, not that that's saying a great deal. My fear of God prevents me, but I in my *expanse* knowledge of King James 17th century English, I understand that 17th century Englishmen didn't say "Yea, behold, It came to pass" every time they wanted to start a new paragraph.

 

[He put me back together]

Anybody know how long it took for Isaac Assimov to write his book "I, Robot"?

Tolkein would be another. Just half of his first book in the series of "Lord of the Rings" might be longer than the BoM.

You get the idea...

<><

Actually, there are probably more people who believe that men will be made of metal in the future, than people who believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.

I personally don't belong to either group, but to each his own.

 

[pyro457]

I thought this was a civillized discusion. Not a discusion of how people think that others religion is total garbage.

So, the BOM is truly from Elohim, because it is long?

Where did it say that it was true because of length? It says that it is long, but it does not say it is true because it is long.

So, the BOM is the truth, because the people who publish it THINK that it is sacred? Does that also mean that the Satanic Bible is the truth? Is the Koran truth? The 8 noble truthes? The Indian caste system? New Age prophecies?

I thought you are not supposed to condemn other religions on this forum (wether they are right or wrong.). And this sure looks like you are condemning multiple ones here. God is the only one with the right to judge us and I didnt see "God" anywhere in youre name.

Yeah, I would have a hard time convincing people that my 600 page epic tale was from God. So did Joseph Smith, if you didn't notice.

If he had a hard time then why do over 11 million belive in it today? And still others who may not belive in my Church but still belive in the Book of Mormon? Why did the witnesses that saw the Golden Plates sitll claim that they saw them till their diying day even after some of them had left the Church?

um...eh...these names aren't actually Ancient Egyptian names, or Ancient Hebrew names. Neither are the names in the King James Bible.

Wheres youre proof?

Shoot me up with something that makes me think that I have some plates from God, and yeah, I'll write something that's 600 pages long in 2 years. That isn't very hard. I wrote at least 300 pages in 3 months in java last spring...and that had to work in the objective world.

Well since you think that this assignment is so easy lets see you do it. You will probally be the first in several hundred people to do it.

I understand that 17th century Englishmen didn't say "Yea, behold, It came to pass" every time they wanted to start a new paragraph.

What does this have to do with the matter? Joseph Smith wasnt a 17th century Englishmen. And the Prophets in the Book of Mormon who wrote the book deffinitley were not 17th century Englishmen.

 

[BjBarnett]

If he had a hard time then why do over 11 million belive in it today? And still others who may not belive in my Church but still belive in the Book of Mormon? Why did the witnesses that saw the Golden Plates sitll claim that they saw them till their diying day even after some of them had left the Church?

11 million isnt really a lot. its actually really small. considering the Catholic Church has over 1 billion members. Even Islam has over 1 billion members. Granted Catholicism and Islam are greatly older than Mormonism it still doesnt say much to say "well 11 million people believe it today". I could write about a magic goat who will save the world in 3020 AD and I bet I could find 40 people that would believe that in a few days.

 

[gort]

I could write about a magic goat who will save the world in 3020 AD and I bet I could find 40 people that would believe that in a few days.

L Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer, started the church of scientology. I wonder how many followers there are there? Aliens in a volcano!

<><

 

[gort]

Pyro,

My dad is mormon. I remember he looked me straight in the face and told me one time that nobody could make up a book like the book of mormon. nobody.

So let's get real here, because many people could do such a thing. And by the way, how many students handed in the assignment?

peace

<><

 

[Breetai]

Aliens in a volcano!

God's on a planet with toilets!

I thought you are not supposed to condemn other religions on this forum...

Where does it say that?

Let's remember that Joe Junior did have some supernatural help with this stuff.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

I thought you are not supposed to condemn other religions on this forum (wether they are right or wrong.). And this sure looks like you are condemning multiple ones here. God is the only one with the right to judge us and I didnt see "God" anywhere in youre name.

.

Where do the forum rules say that we are not to condemn false religions?

God has told us to judge truth from error.

I have seen people compare the lds teachings to Biblical teachings and condemn Mormonism because it doesn't measure up with the Bible, there is nothing wrong with that, we are to stand for truth at all times.

I have not seen anyone in this thread attack you personally and personal attacks are what is against the rules.

 

[pyro457]

Pyro,

So let's get real here, because many people could do such a thing. And by the way, how many students handed in the assignment?

peace

<><

If many people can do such a thing why havent they? And to this day no one has been able to turn in the assignment. Although the Prof. knew no one would be able to.

 

[christopher123]

If he had a hard time then why do over 11 million belive in it today?

Your numbers are way skewed. You may show 11 million on the rolls (actually I think it's closer to 12), but from studies, and activation rates, I would tend to lean toward you having about 3 million true believing members.

Chris <><

 

[Breetai]

Although the Prof. knew no one would be able to.

Or would want to bother.

 

[He put me back together]

I thought this was a civillized discusion. Not a discusion of how people think that others religion is total garbage.

Show us where this conversation has gone that way, and maybe we can try to mend it.

Where did it say that it was true because of length? It says that it is long, but it does not say it is true because it is long.

You didn't say so. Your professor included length as part of the challenge, as if writing something that is long brought about credibility.

I thought you are not supposed to condemn other religions on this forum (wether they are right or wrong.). And this sure looks like you are condemning multiple ones here. God is the only one with the right to judge us and I didnt see "God" anywhere in youre name.

So we're supposed to qualify everything that is ever written as "Holy?" Who is condemning anyone? You should be seeing the point of the matter...if the publishers' belief that the Book of Mormon is from God qualifies it for some higher consideration than it gets, then YOU should give the same consideration to the Satanic Bible. Do you treat the Satanic Bible equally with the Book of Mormon?

If he had a hard time then why do over 11 million belive in it today? And still others who may not belive in my Church but still belive in the Book of Mormon? Why did the witnesses that saw the Golden Plates sitll claim that they saw them till their diying day even after some of them had left the Church?

This has already been addressed, so I won't be redundant. But to be fair to Joseph Smith, Jesus Christ also had his frustrations with people who didn't believe, and he actually died a death not unlike the death Joseph Smith died, historically speaking.

Wheres youre proof?

Check out the original documents. The names in the traditional Bible are altered for the sake of the language. We've had a couple thousand years, many nations, and many tongues along the road to bring about an altering of the original names of the people in the Bible. Some of them have remained pretty close, but most of them have not. This doesn't mean that the King James translators were wrong...it would be confusing to people to publish a name like Yoshiyahu for a man who had been known as Josiah, for instance, but it does mean that the names in the King James aren't the original names of the original scriptures. The Book of Mormon follows the pattern of the King James translation in this light, not the pattern of original Jewish names. Does this mean the Book of Mormon is wrong, or not from God? No, but it does mean that the claim to fame concerning Jewish names doesn't hold any water. It does, as well, require some explanation as to why God would have Joseph Smith translate Jewish names into something that is not Jewish, when no need for identification with prior traditions was there. It doesn't require a very indepth explanation, but it is something to think on.

Well since you think that this assignment is so easy lets see you do it. You will probally be the first in several hundred people to do it.

This was also addressed earlier. And by the way, I too believe in God, and I wouldn't want to see his judgement on me for trying to found a religion, just out of a social experiment. But would you like me to write some fiction? Sure, if you promise to read a copy.

What does this have to do with the matter? Joseph Smith wasnt a 17th century Englishmen. And the Prophets in the Book of Mormon who wrote the book deffinitley were not 17th century Englishmen.

But he TRIED TO WRITE in the language of 17th century Englishmen! I think you must notice that neither 17th century Englishmen nor Jewish prophets EVER said "it came to pass" every time they wished to start a new paragraph. Apparantly this was a practice that was picked up after the migration to the Americas? Well, as a person who reads the Book of Mormon, I think you will notice that this practice is FLUENTLY present, before the alleged pilgrimage.

Nothing in this conversation conclusively means that Mormonism is garbage, or that it isn't from God. What *I* have said, however, is that not one point in this conversation ever sheds an inch of light, pointing in the direction of accepting the BOM as sacred. Not one point in this assignment, and not one point in anything you have said in this thread. Recall that I didn't say Mormonism was trash...all I said was "You're going to have to do better." If this was a conversation about the Bible, or the Koran, or anything else, I would've said that same thing. With all due respect, you're not being persecuted, just because not everyone believes as you do.

 

[gort]

If many people can do such a thing why havent they? And to this day no one has been able to turn in the assignment. Although the Prof. knew no one would be able to.

Hi,

I think I and others have given you examples of some who are quite capable of such things, if they so desired. Robert Heinlein wrote a book called "Stranger in a strange land", a "somewhat paralell to Jesus. "Dune" is another example, full of a peoples, lands and a "religion". There are many such examples.

<><

 

[pyro457]

Hi,

I think I and others have given you examples of some who are quite capable of such things, if they so desired. Robert Heinlein wrote a book called "Stranger in a strange land", a "somewhat paralell to Jesus. "Dune" is another example, full of a peoples, lands and a "religion". There are many such examples.

<><

I actually just recently finsished "Stranger in a Strange Land" and I have read Dune, they are two of my favorite books and the movie "Children of Dune" is awsome. However these are not works of history or the Word of God. Though they may have a couple historical facts that the authors used in the story these books can not be proved historicaly. And I do not see why they are relavent to this discussion. These are works of fiction. They are classified under fiction. This is a disscusion about a work of non-fiction and those who belive otherwise.

 

[He put me back together]

I actually just recently finsished "Stranger in a Strange Land" and I have read Dune, they are two of my favorite books and the movie "Children of Dune" is awsome. However these are not works of history or the Word of God. Though they may have a couple historical facts that the authors used in the story these books can not be proved historicaly. And I do not see why they are relavent to this discussion. These are works of fiction. They are classified under fiction. This is a disscusion about a work of non-fiction and those who belive otherwise.

So, what exactly are you asking of us, then? Are you asking us to be inspired of God, or are you asking us to make up something and claim we are inspired of God?

If it is the former, there are plenty of people who claim to be inspired of God, and who write far more than 600 pages of nonfiction, much of which IS history. But if you're challenging us to be inspired of God to write nonfiction, well, you'd probably make better progress asking God to change our callings.

If it is the latter, the answer to why not many have done this is, they believe doing so is blasphemy. Would you try to fabricate a holy book if you thought you had the ability? Have you tried doing this?

 

[neocon]

Below is something that I found on one of my favorite web sites.

Given that the BOM was merely copied from an already existing manuscript for an early American work of fiction the task seems fairly easy.