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Challenge: Explain the fossil record without evolution

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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
Stasis for hundreds of millions of years
doesn't seem to have ever happened.

Hello Loudmouth.

Someone's feelings hurt?

Crocodiles have been around for over 230 million years.

There are many fossils of crocodylomorphs from the Mesozoic and Cenozoic. Crocodilians
have been very conservative, changing their body form very little through their history of
some 230 million years
(Bristol University, palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk)

Well, let's take a look...
1280px-Simosuchus_clarki%2C_ROM.jpg

"Simosuchus clarki, ROM" by D. Gordon E. Robertson - Own work. Licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 via Commons - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/...OM.jpg#/media/File:Simosuchus_clarki,_ROM.jpg

Doesn't look much like a modern one to me. Notice short face, upright stance, digitigrade feet. Lived on land, and ate plants.

Very little difference between modern crocodiles and the ancient specimens.

See above. Doesn't seem like "very little difference." How about showing one that's exactly like a modern species, with your evidence?
 
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klutedavid

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v

Your link doesn't go anywhere. Could you link the actual article? I find it odd, since crocodiles are far older than 230 million. ThisHow about I tell you where I got the photo from when you actually link the article you quoted?

Your dog wasn't chasing anything like that. There's no extant species that resembles xilousuchus.

I did. Have you? Because if you did, I don't think you'd make that statement.

Some of the earliest crocodiles were large enough to take on a T Rex. That's not 'virtually identical'.
Hello Lasthero.

My link did not go anywhere because I did not post a link Lasthero.

Not sure if you realize that any difference in size is meaningless.

Picture a sausage dog, now picture a great dane, if you dug them up in
the fossil record. You would probably regard them as entirely different
species. Size and shape tells us nothing, morphology is misleading.
 
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lasthero

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Hello Lasthero.

My link did not go anywhere because I did not post a link Lasthero.

Why not?

Not sure if you realize that any difference in size is meaningless.

The picture I posted above wasn't just different in size, but you simply handwaved and ignored it.

The barbarian posted a picture of a fossil that looks completely different from a modern crocodile, but you ignored it.

WIll you at least admit that ancient crocodiles weren't 'virtually indentical' to their modern counterparts, because that's very clearly not true.

It's nearly five times bigger than the largest crocodile alive today. By no definition is that 'virtually identical'. The pictures above are surely not.

Picture a sausage dog, now picture a great dane, if you dug them up in
the fossil record. You would probably regard them as entirely different
species. Size and shape tells us nothing, morphology is misleading.

Dogs have undergone selective breeding by humans. Crocodiles haven't. You don't get that sort of variety within a species in the wild.
 
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klutedavid

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Why not?



The picture I posted above wasn't just different in size, but you simply handwaved and ignored it.

The barbarian posted a picture of a fossil that looks completely different from a modern crocodile, but you ignored it.

WIll you at least admit that ancient crocodiles weren't 'virtually indentical' to their modern counterparts, because that's very clearly not true.

It's nearly five times bigger than the largest crocodile alive today. By no definition is that 'virtually identical'. The pictures above are surely not.



Dogs have undergone selective breeding by humans. Crocodiles haven't. You don't get that sort of variety within a species in the wild.
Hello LastHero.

Thanks for the reply.
The picture I posted above wasn't just different in size, but you simply handwaved
and ignored it.
I looked at the picture you posted and I was not surprised, because I dismiss the morphology.
The barbarian posted a picture of a fossil that looks completely different from a
modern crocodile, but you ignored it.
Morphology tells us nothing Lasthero.
WIll you at least admit that ancient crocodiles weren't 'virtually indentical' to their
modern counterparts, because that's very clearly not true.
Get me the DNA of these creatures and I will prove once and for all, that isolated populations
of crocodiles will generate a multitude of visual differences. I should explain myself further.

As we go back in time the earth was hotter, the crust was thinner, eruptions were bigger
and more violent. The tectonic plates travelled much faster than today. Populations of creatures
were being isolated frequently due to the fluctuating terrain. In this environment, we will
observe vast differences in the members of a Genus, over a time scale of tens of millions
of years.
It's nearly five times bigger than the largest crocodile alive today.
Yes of course it's bigger, everything was bigger in those times, size was everything.
Nature was selecting on the criteria of size, even the insects were huge.
Dogs have undergone selective breeding by humans. Crocodiles haven't. You don't
get that sort of variety within a species in the wild.
Which demonstrates exactly my argument Lasthero, selective breeding is equivalent to
isolating populations over a very long period of time. The only real difference, selective
breeding is an accelerated form of this isolation of groups, from any given population.

Humans have not been selectively bred by an alien race, yet we come in all shapes,
sizes, and colours. We even regarded some races as subordinate species for a period
of time. Hold on, some of us may still even maintain this idea I think.
 
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Jfrsmth

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I have to agree, with one commenter, your approach does come across as a little crude, but hey, this is a forum and that's what we have here.

Question: Are you really seeking truth here?

It does seem, by your wording that you are unwilling to be open to reason, as you have already stated, "Explain the fossil record contained in earth's sedimentary strata without evolution." Could it possibly have been asked, "what other possibility could there be for the strata we see today..."?

Additionally, you made the comment: "In doing this you are required to utilize science and only science." So, what is your definition of science? Evolutionists tend to skew the definition and or meaning of that word. Is "science" to you "evolution"-based conclusions or is "science" objective observation and experimentation, to either verify or falsify a hypothesis?

You also stated: "...evolution according to the mainstream scientific community" which is a front you have propped up, saying that the only real science is what evolution says." If that is the case, you are quite unlikely to listen to any other interpretation based observations; meaning, you are so convinced of your stand, that you are unwilling to hear anything else.

You see, RickG, it is your wording that too many sincere, God-loving, Christ-sharing, evangelical, creationists fail to catch, and fall right into your trap. All many of them want to do is share Christ with you, and this is one path to do it. They make the mistake of thinking that you are open to discussion and reason; and that they can convince you, when they cannot. Then, you dismantle them and feel good about it. You have already set the stage in your favor.

Here is an example of your thinking: "How would you explain the fossil record without evolution? How did those fossils get where they are in the sedimentary strata (geologic column) if not by means of evolution, by what other means?" Surely, you are aware of the creationist flood geology, and are just waiting for someone to bring it up and you're gonna "slam 'em" with evolutionary "science" rebuttals.

So, how can someone make their case without you summarily dismissing it? It's like you are holding a big flyswatter and anyone who "takes a crack at it" will be smacked. So, tell me, how can one expect a fair shake here?

For example, you are assuming, based on generalizations of the positions of the fossils that they display an evolutionary pattern, i.e. they are "progressing" from one form to the next based on evolution's interpretation of "geological column," while ignoring the other side of the interpretation that the same data could be extrapolated to mean that they are in (general) order of habitat . . . Not to mention that there is an utter absence of the plausible millions of micro-transitioning organisms; and what we see in the Cambrian layer is a lateral distribution of organisms that make up several phyla, rather than the hypothesized vertical progression. It's not there.

Also, fossils themselves indicate rapid burial - without rapid burial, remains of organic life tends to decay and disappear. How is it that we have so many fossils if they supposedly took millions of years to fossilize? Keep in mind, that the majority of fossils are invertebrates, and only a very small percentage are vertebrates.

How you respond to this will either demonstrate that I was accurate in my observation of your bias or that I am wrong and there is a lack of bias (and my apologies); and whether I will continue or not. If I perceive some amount of objectivity in your response, I'll be happy to proceed further. If none, I'll just move on. But, that is contrary to what you began this thread for, right? You wanted to discuss this, right? Or was there another purpose in your thread aside from truth-seeking?


Suffice to say, the apparent fossil record has anomalies that falsify the fictitious images we find in textbooks and to which you are referring. One basic and well-known observation of geology: we find the same seashells in every strata. Can you explain how that may have happened in an evolutionary model? How about extinct creatures as indicated in evolution's geo. column from millions of years ago, suddenly showing up in modern times? Please tell me how that would not falsify the evolutionary geo. column hypothesis? There are a lot of out of place artifacts in evolution's geologic column (mixed-up fossils). There are living fossils today. By their own admissions, evolutionists state that there are problems with the geologic column.

The Malachite find gives the indication of regular old humans living in the same strata (era) as dinosaurs. There are numerous references to dinosaur-looking creatures throughout history. How could that be without direct contact with humans?

I'll end with a few predictions:

Prediction 1 (if you are a typical evolutionist): You or another evolutionist attached to this thread will read this and first thing, "react" instead of read objectively, thereby negating a reasonable discussion. You or another evolutionist attached to this thread may even give some kind of emotional rebuff or attack creationists, or even (probably) me.

Prediction 2 (if you are a typical evolutionist): You or another evolutionist attached to this thread will demand "references" for my statements. However, I am pretty sure you have encountered these comments before and are aware of them, and are "ready" for them with a deluge of contradictory counter-references from Talk-Origins; and in your evolutionary worldview, dismissed them without consideration.

Prediction 3 (if you are a typical evolutionist): You, or someone other adherent to evolutionary philosophy hanging on this thread will give a reply with all kinds of information promoting your worldview, digressing and detouring from the subject, rather than discuss the matter reasonably.
 
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lasthero

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Hello LastHero.

Thanks for the reply.

I looked at the picture you posted and I was not surprised, because I dismiss the morphology.

Morphology tells us nothing Lasthero.

Morphology tells us a lot.

As we go back in time the earth was hotter, the crust was thinner, eruptions were bigger
and more violent. The tectonic plates travelled much faster than today. Populations of creatures
were being isolated frequently due to the fluctuating terrain. In this environment, we will
observe vast differences in the members of a Genus, over a time scale of tens of millions
of years.

Evidence for any of this? Especially the tectonic plates traveling faster.

Yes of course it's bigger, everything was bigger in those times, size was everything.
Nature was selecting on the criteria of size, even the insects were huge.[/quoute]

Not everything was big. Many small animals lived during those times, like Compsognathus.


Which demonstrates exactly my argument Lasthero, selective breeding is equivalent to
isolating populations over a very long period of time.

No, it's not.

Humans have not been selectively bred by an alien race, yet we come in all shapes,
sizes, and colours.

Humans are very genetically similar. The differences between humans are very small, comparatively.
 
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The Barbarian

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Morphology tells us nothing Lasthero.

And yet you attempted to convince us that ancient crocodiles were virtually identical to modern ones, based on morphology. This behavior dosen't do much for your credibility.
 
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RickG

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Okay folks, we have additional posters contributing to the thread. I appreciate everyone's participation, however, this thread is not about evolution. It is about explaining the fossil record throughout earth's sedimentary stratigraphic layers without evolution.

Please, please, please, please understand that this thread is not about proving or disproving evolution. Transitional fossils are irrelevant to the discussion. The thread is looking for a mechanism other than evolution that can explain the distribution of the fossil record. WHAT IS THAT MECHANISM? Keep in mind that it must be explained scientifically and founded in solid science, not opinion.
 
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AV1611VET

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Okay folks, we have additional posters contributing to the thread. I appreciate everyone's participation, however, this thread is not about evolution. It is about explaining the fossil record throughout earth's sedimentary stratigraphic layers without evolution.

Please, please, please, please understand that this thread is not about proving or disproving evolution. Transitional fossils are irrelevant to the discussion. The thread is looking for a mechanism other than evolution that can explain the distribution of the fossil record. WHAT IS THAT MECHANISM? Keep in mind that it must be explained scientifically and founded in solid science, not opinion.
If no one answers, will you keep looking?

Or is that your goal?
 
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AV1611VET

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In doing this you are required to utilize science and only science.
How?

It's science that got you into this mess.

Now you want science to get you out?
 
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The Barbarian

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One basic and well-known observation of geology: we find the same seashells in every strata.

Let's test that belief. Show me that the same species of shells are found in Cambrian and Cretaceous strata. Remember, the same, not "sorta look alike."

Can you explain how that may have happened in an evolutionary model?

Show us the specifics and we'll talk about it.

How about extinct creatures as indicated in evolution's geo. column from millions of years ago, suddenly showing up in modern times?

That's easy. A lot of species exist for millions of years. Tens of millions, not so many. Hundreds of millions, pretty rare, if any.

Show us your examples.

Please tell me how that would not falsify the evolutionary geo. column hypothesis?

I don't see how it would have anything to do with that. Can you explain how you think the geologic column has been falsified by such things?

There are a lot of out of place artifacts in evolution's geologic column (mixed-up fossils).

Show us that.

There are living fossils today.

Show us some, and we'll talk about it.
 
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bhsmte

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And yet you attempted to convince us that ancient crocodiles were virtually identical to modern ones, based on morphology. This behavior dosen't do much for your credibility.

I have found it quite common, for fundies to contradict themselves quite often, as they work desperately, to protect their belief.
 
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The Barbarian

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Years ago, some people from the Institute for Creation Research attempted to do what you have asked. They came up with a number of ideas:

1. Hydrologic sorting. Different shaped animals were deposited in different layers.

The big problem with this one is why icthyosaurs, acanthodians, and whales are found in different strata, although they are very similar in shape. In fact, almost all strata feature all shapes.

2. Differential escape. Mammals, having higher metabolic rates could keep a head of the flood faster than the slow dinosaurs. The plodding velociraptors were easily outrun by swift sloths.

Forgot the others. I'll see if I can find them.
 
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RickG

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Years ago, some people from the Institute for Creation Research attempted to do what you have asked. They came up with a number of ideas:

1. Hydrologic sorting. Different shaped animals were deposited in different layers.

The big problem with this one is why icthyosaurs, acanthodians, and whales are found in different strata, although they are very similar in shape. In fact, almost all strata feature all shapes.

2. Differential escape. Mammals, having higher metabolic rates could keep a head of the flood faster than the slow dinosaurs. The plodding velociraptors were easily outrun by swift sloths.

Forgot the others. I'll see if I can find them.

Thanks Barbarian for being the first person to actually address the topic of this thread. Aside from the problems you expressed, one would also need to also explain why those fossils are not contained in flood debris.
 
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FreeinChrist

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This thread has had a clean up.

Folks, let me be clear - STICK TO THE TOPIC (yes, I am yelling).
 
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