Challenge: Explain the fossil record without evolution

[Subduction Zone]

I only asked one question. What percent of the species went extinct on a world wide bases so far in this extinction?

Sorry, you are not in a position yet to ask questions. Do you see your error? Answer that and I will answer your question.

 

[Atheos canadensis]

How long can a bone last lying on the surface...waiting to be slowly covered?

As others have pointed out, long enough to be scavenged by large and small predators as well as trampled. As others have also pointed out, this isn't really relevant to the thread though, I was just curious how fast you thought burial had to take place. But let's discuss the OP. Would you like to address the question of how the arrangement of the fossil record was produced without reference to evolution? In your case I would assume this means answering the question of how the Flood produced the observed arrangement of the fossil record.

EDIT: Ah, I see that a few pages back you began to address the OP by proposing some mechanisms by which the Flood might have sorted the drowned biota into the arrangement we observe. I will make a response to that post directly.

 

[-57]

It is not a smart choice to stick with a book that has been shown to be wrong. I guess that means you will disagree with any books that make such basic claims as "ice floats".

Why would I disagree with a book that says "ice floats"? ...or are you just being nasty? If so, why would you be so nasty? Is it your religious atheistic value system?

 

[-57]

No, the refutation of the Fe-preservation hypothesis that you claim was debunked in the book you read.

You DID read the book right? Explain to me the problems with the hypothesis....chemically. Please. Thanks.

I read the bible? What book did you read?

 

[The Barbarian]

Interesting.

I didn't know this.

But which came first, in your opinion?

The meander bend, or the Grand Canyon?

I say the meander bend came first.

Old rivers move around and form meanders. This happens because a slower moving stream cuts one side of a bend, and deposits material on the other.

When an old river is uplifted, it starts to flow faster, and cuts deeper into the bed, becoming trapped in the existing bed. Which eventually forms those entrenched meanders. So yes, the meanders were there before the canyon formed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why would I disagree with a book that says "ice floats"? ...or are you just being nasty? If so, why would you be so nasty? Is it your religious atheistic value system?

I mirror the person that I am responding to. If you can be polite I can be polite too.

If you believe in a worldwide flood then you have to believe that ice does not float. There have been icecaps at Antarctica and Greenland for longer than homo sapiens have been on the Earth. And that is just one of the many observed facts that tell us that there was no worldwide flood.

 

[fargonic]

I read the bible? What book did you read?

YOU provided a link to a book from the Creation Research Society that YOU claimed refuted the Fe-preservation hypothesis.

Presumably YOU READ this book. YOU need to now explain to me the CHEMISTRY that you read that convinced you of it's correctness.

YOU provided the CRS book link, YOU read the book, now EXPLAIN why you believed the book, chemically.

Thanks.

 

[-57]

I mirror the person that I am responding to. If you can be polite I can be polite too.

If you believe in a worldwide flood then you have to believe that ice does not float. There have been icecaps at Antarctica and Greenland for longer than homo sapiens have been on the Earth. And that is just one of the many observed facts that tell us that there was no worldwide flood.

The ice caps were created after the flood.

 

[-57]

YOU provided a link to a book from the Creation Research Society that YOU claimed refuted the Fe-preservation hypothesis.

Presumably YOU READ this book. YOU need to now explain to me the CHEMISTRY that you read that convinced you of it's correctness.

YOU provided the CRS book link, YOU read the book, now EXPLAIN why you believed the book, chemically.

Thanks.

The "Iron Based" concept has been refuted.

Creation Research Quarterly Volume 51 Spring 2015 number 4

Analysis of Preservation Motifs

Schweitzer et al. (2013a, 2013b) have proposed numerous possible explana- tions for the survival of recovered colla- gen and other soft tissue materials found in T. rex and B. canadensis including for example molecular sheltering, hydro- phobic enrichment, iron-protein block- ing, cross-linking, etc. Undoubtedly all if not most of the proposals have some merit. However, in our view, the matter of these mechanisms explaining deep time survival has not been adequately supported either empirically or by literature review. We begin by merely pointing out that the Fenton chemistry hypothesis supported by the ostrich tis- sue preservation experiment over 2 years, using hemoglobin as a preservative is simply inadequate to extrapolate and infer stabilization over 68 million years. It is unknown if environmental factors like high-low temperature cycling or dehydration might radically alter the test specimens appearance. Is a tissue specimen soaked in blood kept in a laboratory an adequate experiment to model the environmental weathering of postmortem tissue? In this vein, it is again trivially pointed out that the visual inspection method of tissue analysis is woefully inadequate to draw any conclusions concerning a molecular mechanism of stabilization. The group has access to mass spectra evaluation which could have identified footprints of hydroxyl radical presence. As we shall see, a more careful analysis of the mass spectral data related to the particular peptides and sequences shows that some doubt, if not complete rejection, of several preservation motifs is war- ranted. The particular motif that intro- duces more problems than it purportedly solves concerns Fenton chemistry iron fixation of the peptides.

The proposal is essentially hydroxyl free-radical infiltration into soft tissue. The free radicals are generated by iron- biominerals with which the tissue is combined. Success of this mechanism depends upon deployment of the free radicals through an aqueous medium in contact with the polypeptide. We hold that “chemical fingerprints” of this activity should be registered upon the peptides themselves. For example, hydrolytically sensitive amino acids (asparagine, glutamine) should have degraded and free-radical sensitive com- pounds (tyrosine) should have reacted. These observations may seem like an unnecessary if not insignificant detail to observe but recall that the specimens have been in the ground for some 68 million years. If a chemical mechanism (Fenton chemistry or iron mediated hy-droxyl radical fixation) is to be believed, its entire consequent (fugitive water and hydroxyl radicals dosing the peptide remnants) ought to have occurred. Be- low we set out upon an inspection of two general ideas concerning the presence of water and hydroxyl free radicals and their potential signature upon peptide chemistry.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The ice caps were created after the flood.

Wrong. Their ages are confirmed by several independent methods.

There was no worldwide flood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The "Iron Based" concept has been refuted.

Creation Research Quarterly Volume 51 Spring 2015 number 4

Analysis of Preservation Motifs

Schweitzer et al. (2013a, 2013b) have proposed numerous possible explana- tions for the survival of recovered colla- gen and other soft tissue materials found in T. rex and B. canadensis including for example molecular sheltering, hydro- phobic enrichment, iron-protein block- ing, cross-linking, etc. Undoubtedly all if not most of the proposals have some merit. However, in our view, the matter of these mechanisms explaining deep time survival has not been adequately supported either empirically or by literature review. We begin by merely pointing out that the Fenton chemistry hypothesis supported by the ostrich tis- sue preservation experiment over 2 years, using hemoglobin as a preservative is simply inadequate to extrapolate and infer stabilization over 68 million years. It is unknown if environmental factors like high-low temperature cycling or dehydration might radically alter the test specimens appearance. Is a tissue specimen soaked in blood kept in a laboratory an adequate experiment to model the environmental weathering of postmortem tissue? In this vein, it is again trivially pointed out that the visual inspection method of tissue analysis is woefully inadequate to draw any conclusions concerning a molecular mechanism of stabilization. The group has access to mass spectra evaluation which could have identified footprints of hydroxyl radical presence. As we shall see, a more careful analysis of the mass spectral data related to the particular peptides and sequences shows that some doubt, if not complete rejection, of several preservation motifs is war- ranted. The particular motif that intro- duces more problems than it purportedly solves concerns Fenton chemistry iron fixation of the peptides.

The proposal is essentially hydroxyl free-radical infiltration into soft tissue. The free radicals are generated by iron- biominerals with which the tissue is combined. Success of this mechanism depends upon deployment of the free radicals through an aqueous medium in contact with the polypeptide. We hold that “chemical fingerprints” of this activity should be registered upon the peptides themselves. For example, hydrolytically sensitive amino acids (asparagine, glutamine) should have degraded and free-radical sensitive com- pounds (tyrosine) should have reacted. These observations may seem like an unnecessary if not insignificant detail to observe but recall that the specimens have been in the ground for some 68 million years. If a chemical mechanism (Fenton chemistry or iron mediated hy-droxyl radical fixation) is to be believed, its entire consequent (fugitive water and hydroxyl radicals dosing the peptide remnants) ought to have occurred. Be- low we set out upon an inspection of two general ideas concerning the presence of water and hydroxyl free radicals and their potential signature upon peptide chemistry.

Sorry, but you cannot refute a scientific argument with a source that avoids science.

 

[AV1611VET]

Old rivers move around and form meanders.

That's nice.

Now trying saying it this way:

"The Flood waters followed a preset course on their way to a deportation point, in obedience to God's command."

 

[-57]

Wrong. Their ages are confirmed by several independent methods.

There was no worldwide flood.

ROFLOL...sure they have.

 

[-57]

Sorry, but you cannot refute a scientific argument with a source that avoids science.

How does the source avoid science? (you do know you are losing credibility points quickly?)

 

[bhsmte]

How does the source avoid science? (you do know you are losing credibility points quickly?)

Not just irony, massive irony!

 

[amanuensis63]

The "Iron Based" concept has been refuted.

Creation Research Quarterly Volume 51 Spring 2015 number 4

Analysis of Preservation Motifs

Schweitzer et al. (2013a, 2013b) have proposed numerous possible explana- tions for the survival of recovered colla- gen and other soft tissue materials found in T. rex and B. canadensis including for example molecular sheltering, hydro- phobic enrichment, iron-protein block- ing, cross-linking, etc. Undoubtedly all if not most of the proposals have some merit. However, in our view, the matter of these mechanisms explaining deep time survival has not been adequately supported either empirically or by literature review. We begin by merely pointing out that the Fenton chemistry hypothesis supported by the ostrich tis- sue preservation experiment over 2 years, using hemoglobin as a preservative is simply inadequate to extrapolate and infer stabilization over 68 million years. It is unknown if environmental factors like high-low temperature cycling or dehydration might radically alter the test specimens appearance. Is a tissue specimen soaked in blood kept in a laboratory an adequate experiment to model the environmental weathering of postmortem tissue? In this vein, it is again trivially pointed out that the visual inspection method of tissue analysis is woefully inadequate to draw any conclusions concerning a molecular mechanism of stabilization. The group has access to mass spectra evaluation which could have identified footprints of hydroxyl radical presence. As we shall see, a more careful analysis of the mass spectral data related to the particular peptides and sequences shows that some doubt, if not complete rejection, of several preservation motifs is war- ranted. The particular motif that intro- duces more problems than it purportedly solves concerns Fenton chemistry iron fixation of the peptides.

The proposal is essentially hydroxyl free-radical infiltration into soft tissue. The free radicals are generated by iron- biominerals with which the tissue is combined. Success of this mechanism depends upon deployment of the free radicals through an aqueous medium in contact with the polypeptide. We hold that “chemical fingerprints” of this activity should be registered upon the peptides themselves. For example, hydrolytically sensitive amino acids (asparagine, glutamine) should have degraded and free-radical sensitive com- pounds (tyrosine) should have reacted. These observations may seem like an unnecessary if not insignificant detail to observe but recall that the specimens have been in the ground for some 68 million years. If a chemical mechanism (Fenton chemistry or iron mediated hy-droxyl radical fixation) is to be believed, its entire consequent (fugitive water and hydroxyl radicals dosing the peptide remnants) ought to have occurred. Be- low we set out upon an inspection of two general ideas concerning the presence of water and hydroxyl free radicals and their potential signature upon peptide chemistry.

Do you understand what you copy pasted here?

 

[Subduction Zone]

ROFLOL...sure they have.

So you are determined to make your ignorance obvious. That is fine with me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does the source avoid science? (you do know you are losing credibility points quickly?)

How am I losing any "credibility points"? The openly state that anyone that works for them in any way at all has to avoid the scientific method.

Do you know what the scientific method is or is that part of your massive store of ignorance too?

 

[-57]

So you are determined to make your ignorance obvious. That is fine with me.

Six American fighter planes and two bombers that crash-landed in Greenland in World War II have been found 46 years later buried under 260 feet of ice, searchers said today. NY Times

 

[The Barbarian]

Old rivers move around and form meanders. This happens because a slower moving stream cuts one side of a bend, and deposits material on the other.

When an old river is uplifted, it starts to flow faster, and cuts deeper into the bed, becoming trapped in the existing bed. Which eventually forms those entrenched meanders. So yes, the meanders were there before the canyon formed.

That's nice.

And true, too.

Now trying saying it this way:

"The Flood waters followed a preset course on their way to a deportation point, in obedience to God's command."

In the absence of any scripture support or evidence for it, I'd say your new belief isn't very likely.