Cessationism: Have the gifts ceased?

[Thunderchild]

 

Ah yes. Not fear of hell nor hope of heaven will be of any avail, but love of God. (or otherwise.)

 

Is coming up for 5:30 am....catch you another time.

 

[Thunderchild]

Right about now, Cougan I figure your package should be winging its way across the Pacific Ocean.

Snup: Found some stuff that refers to sins being removed from the body...Now where was it?

Oh yes... Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

"Quicken" in this passage means instill life to. About the only example of "quick" meaning "living" in current English is part of a preserved adage: "the quick and the dead"

 

[cougan]

Ok TC I look forward to receiveing it.

 

[Andrew]

"Nothing can separate those who are faithful from the love of God."

that's adding to scipture -- parts in bold.

"it seems obvious that salvation is not garanteed to those who don't seek after God"

so you get saved but must still seek after God to have a guaranteed salvation? IOW no assurance of salvation. So which is it? are you saved or r u not? Do you have the gift of eternal life in you or not? Does God give out salvation in installments? sounds like a works thing to me.

a sinner confesses Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Is filled with joy he's saved. r u gonna then tell him "Well, actually you are not really saved yet. you must still play your part or .... When Jesus said I give them eternal life, he mean half of it."

 

[SnuP]

any heart that is closed to God, God can not heal. Closed for any reason, including, pride, fear, anger, hurt. "Behold I stand at the door and knock..." this shows that God will not do anything unless you open the door (give him permission). So I have this question to ask and I want you to think about it real carfully.

How can God redeem a closed heart, since that action would violate free will?

The answer is that He will not. And it does not matter that the person was really saved or not. God will not. And yes it is possible for a saved man of God to close his heart to God. (example: at the passing of a loved one that the person was not ready to let go of).

God cannot redeem a closed heart even if the spirit is redeemed.

 

[Andrew]

"God cannot redeem a closed heart even if the spirit is redeemed."

I'm a little confused by this. r u saying a closed heart cannot be redeemed but then since the spirit is redeemed the person still goes to heaven? or r u saying a closed heart leads one way to hell, despite spirit being "once redeemed". I'm talking abt true-blue born again Christians like yourself.

also, question: can we underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit in that person's life to draw him back to God? ie open up his heart, not by forcing agst his will but by grace and love.--- goodness of God that leads to repentance.

 

[sola fide]

God can't redeemed a closed heart? You might want to think about that statement. All hearts were closed at one time or another. Ephesians 2 says that we were all once DEAD and in bondage to the prince of the power of the air. Is a dead heart not cold? If you're not regenerate, you're dead in sins and transgession.
Did Paul have a closed heart before the road to Damascus? It would seem hi did, being that he persecuted and killed Christians. Yet in one regenerative act of God, his life was turned around, and I dare say his cold heart was healed of its murderous nature.
"God cannot redeem a closed heart even if the spirit is redeemed".
You might want to clarify that statement.
"The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect."-Psalm 33:10
We might want to trust in Him rather than limit the quantity and quality of His redemption. If God couldn't redeem a cold heart then I would most likely be a very sad person today.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Thunderchild]

Nothing can separate those who are faithful from the love of God."

that's adding to scipture -- parts in bold.

Not so much add to as provide a synopsis (unlike adding "alone" to "we are saved by faith")

To demonstrate whether or not "those who are faithful" is adding to the scripture, let's take a look at what is written.

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:38 - 39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now to whom does "us" refer in this passage. Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Now, how do we know that a person does (or doesn't) love God?

2 John 1:5-6 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. OK - Loving Christ means walking in his commandments, as it is also written, "not the hearers only of the word shall be justified before God, but the doers thereof."

But what are those commandments: Let us assume for a moment that there are only two commandments given by the Christ - I am sure no-one will find fault with these two.

Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Ah now, but how do we know that we are in fact conforming with this commandment to love...

Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.ACK!!! That can't be right - works show that a person loves God? Surely not. But what have I said from the first? Works of law don't save, but works of love and of faith are a part of the process of salvation. But worse and worse - the very commandments demand that a person love God.... that too, is something the person must DO. It is a deed: a work. What was said in Revelation? 

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and  do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.  

1Jo 3:16 - 18 Hereby perceive we the love [of God], because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down [our] lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels [of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. Now isn't that a kicker? We have come about almost full circle to the declaration that Jesus made - if the believer is his disciple, the truth will set that believer free from sin.




Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Note the correlation to the Romans 8 passages in the early part of this post.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (this used to be a favourite of the OSAS party. - I have not seen it cited in more than a year. Maybe they got tired of having the first three words restored to the quote when they tried to use it.)

 

There is after all, a difference between adding to the scriptures, and rightly dividing the scriptures.

 

[Thunderchild]

I am beginning to see why Paul found it necessary to write such convoluted passages.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
"God cannot redeem a closed heart even if the spirit is redeemed."

I'm a little confused by this. r u saying a closed heart cannot be redeemed but then since the spirit is redeemed the person still goes to heaven? or r u saying a closed heart leads one way to hell, despite spirit being "once redeemed". I'm talking abt true-blue born again Christians like yourself.

also, question: can we underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit in that person's life to draw him back to God? ie open up his heart, not by forcing agst his will but by grace and love.--- goodness of God that leads to repentance.

Good questions Andrew.  I am saying that a person cannot go to heaven with a closed heart.  The point of salvation is to restore that that once was lost to the heart of God.  If a person is rejecting the love of God, because of some wound, then that person is rejecting the love of God that leads to salvation.

God will continue to draw him back to the heart of God, or else the scripture would be a lie.  But God cannot brack the will of man, and if man says 'no, I can not deal with that right now' then God will not force him, only, continue to knock that one day the door will be opened and He may come in again.

Salvation starts with us openning the door of our heart and it will end if we close that door.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by sola fide
God can't redeemed a closed heart? You might want to think about that statement. All hearts were closed at one time or another. Ephesians 2 says that we were all once DEAD and in bondage to the prince of the power of the air. Is a dead heart not cold? If you're not regenerate, you're dead in sins and transgession.
Did Paul have a closed heart before the road to Damascus? It would seem hi did, being that he persecuted and killed Christians. Yet in one regenerative act of God, his life was turned around, and I dare say his cold heart was healed of its murderous nature.
"God cannot redeem a closed heart even if the spirit is redeemed".
You might want to clarify that statement.
"The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect."-Psalm 33:10
We might want to trust in Him rather than limit the quantity and quality of His redemption. If God couldn't redeem a cold heart then I would most likely be a very sad person today.

Soli Deo gloria!

You forget that Paul was trying to do the will of God.  His heart was open because he was seeking God's will, it didn't matter that it was in error or that there was no love.

God can redeem a cold heart and a dead heart, but He won't redeem a closed heart.  You misunderstand the scripture.  Man has never had a dead heart, he has a dead spirit.  The heart is the doorway to the spirit.  It does not matter the condition of the heart only that it is open.  If it is open then God can come in and breath life into the spirit of a man.

 

[SnuP]

Revelation 3

18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"No one ever just picked up the Bible, started reading, and then came to the conclusion that God was not doing signs and wonders anymore and that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had passed away."

Amen! God is alive and well! He is working in the lives of the lost and burdened today just as He was in the book of Acts. He did not perform the miracles and healings we read of soley because He had something to prove. Quite the contrary. He did these things because He loved mankind. He loves us no less today! Praise His Name!

 

 

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by SnuP
You forget that Paul was trying to do the will of God.  His heart was open because he was seeking God's will, it didn't matter that it was in error or that there was no love.

God can redeem a cold heart and a dead heart, but He won't redeem a closed heart.  You misunderstand the scripture.  Man has never had a dead heart, he has a dead spirit.  The heart is the doorway to the spirit.  It does not matter the condition of the heart only that it is open.  If it is open then God can come in and breath life into the spirit of a man.

Actually, I don't think I misinterpreted that scripture. It wasn't as if my interpretation of that scripture was my alone interpretation. Many credible theologians have held the same view on this subject as I do. Traditionally, all of the reformers, as well as the early baptists did. So again, I don't think I misunderstood that scripture.
Paul's heart was not open to Christ when he was on his journey to Damascus. He hated Christians and all that they stood for. I think we need to remember that we serve a supreme and sovereign LORD. Our mind is only open to Him if He first acts on us. Only He has that quickening power. He doesn't violate our free will, but He molds our will into the image of His own. If you notice in the scriptures mentioned about Paul...he did not seek God in prayer until AFTER Christ appeared to Him. Anyway, enough about that.
Secondly, the comment was made that God did not have anything to prove with His miracles of the Bible. I beg to differ. Each and every miracle in scripture proved a point, and a very specific point at that. He proved to pharoah that He was the true God, and defender of His chosen people in Exodus. He proved the same thing to the worshipers of baal by sending fire from heaven. Likewise, in the new testament....Christ performed miracles as proof He was who He said He was. And the Apostles performed miracles to prove that they were the foundation of the true church, the body of Christ. Miracles have always.....always been used to prove points. Just as all other things in creation, miracles were (and can be) performed only for the glorification of the God, and no other purpose is satisfactory. Amen.
*steps down off soap box*
God bless.

Soli Deo gloria! To God alone be the glory!

 

[SnuP]

What point did God have to prove when Elijah stuck the river with his coat and crossed over on dry ground.

God's main purpose in every miracle is to show man His love, not just to prove something about Himself.

 

[sola fide]

Actually, in the old testament, God mostly showed His divine wrath through His miracles. The wrath of God must be taken in the same context as His love, because you cannot have one without the other. Even at the cross. His love was satisfied at the cross, because His people were saved...but His wrath was also satisfied, because punishment for sin was placed on Christ.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[sola fide]

Sorry I forgot to mention this, but if He was showing His love...isn't that something about Himself?

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Thunderchild]

Paul did indeed have a closed heart on that journey toward Damascus. There is no doubt of it.... by his own admission, he had a zeal for God but not the knowledge that would give the zeal a proper outflow. So of course, the Christ had to knock on Paul's door really loudly...

20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,

It doesn't say that the Christ will knock at the open door of the heart. In fact, given the statement that the person opens the door, it seems likely that the Christ doesn't do a whole lot of knocking at the open door of any heart.

 

[Thunderchild]

What point did God have to prove when Elijah (and Elisha, come to that) crossed the Jordan on dry ground? Perhaps the point that God approved them as workmen, and that the fact had to be demonstrated both to the people and to Elisha himself that God had approved Elisha as a workman.

It is no small matter - to accept a man's word as being from God - without that God attests to him as a workman.... no small matter at all.

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
Paul did indeed have a closed heart on that journey toward Damascus. There is no doubt of it.... by his own admission, he had a zeal for God but not the knowledge that would give the zeal a proper outflow. So of course, the Christ had to knock on Paul's door really loudly... It doesn't say that the Christ will knock at the open door of the heart. In fact, given the statement that the person opens the door, it seems likely that the Christ doesn't do a whole lot of knocking at the open door of any heart.

Paul had a closed heart to Christ that is true, but he did not have a closed heart toward God.  This fact and this fact alone is the reason the Christ came to him in the first place.  It is obvious that Paul opened his heart toward Christ immidiately upon understanding the reality of Christ as being more then just a man.  I have not suggest that Christ need to or does knock on a heart that is open.  It seems that this would be pointless.