CERN findings

[TheReasoner]

I've discussed this a little with fellow students and professors at my university, and while I am yet to find someone who is not skeptical towards the accuracy of the findings I am also yet to find someone who is not at least a little excited. As we anxiously await confirmation from the US and Japan - which may take a few years - what are your predictions? Do you believe this will be the trigger event for the next paradigm shift, if right? What's your money on if the data is accurate?

 

[USincognito]

What's your money on if the data is accurate?

Right now? A dollar. I'll wait for more analysis and possible replications before I consider a fundamental change to our understanding of physics.

And yes, I'm still bitter that this activity is taking place at CERN rather than the SSC

 

[TheReasoner]

Right now? A dollar. I'll wait for more analysis and possible replications before I consider a fundamental change to our understanding of physics.

I agree, of course. Still is exciting to follow it though.

And yes, I'm still bitter that this activity is taking place at CERN rather than the SSC

I think many are. I am very dismayed the SSC was never finished myself. We should have had both the SSC and Cern competing on these issues. What does the US have now, anyway? Fermilab is the biggest and best you have over there, right?

 

[USincognito]

I agree, of course. Still is exciting to follow it though.

Indeed. The LHC should provide some interesting insights into the subatomic world and the nutrinos travelling faster than light is intriguing. If anything it would leave the door open for the development of some sort of warp drive rather than relying on discovering a hyperspace/wormholes or learning to fold space in order to travel the distances interstellar exploration will require.

I think many are. I am very dismayed the SSC was never finished myself. We should have had both the SSC and Cern competing on these issues. What does the US have now, anyway? Fermilab is the biggest and best you have over there, right?

To be honest, if you hadn't mentioned Fermilab, I'd have drawn a complete blank. Unless it can be tied to an economic benefit or something that hypes up the public like exobiology, we don't seem too interested in funding grand research projects for research sake.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Maybe they (ftl neutrinos) have something to do with the missing Higgs boson?

 

[cupid dave]

... nutrinos travelling faster than light is intriguing.

I think the next insight will be that neutrinos are actually packages of energy, not matter at all.

This will then merely tell us that mass-less particles exist which do travel faster than light, but this does not violate the rule Einstein proposed for matter.

 

[USincognito]

I think the next insight will be that neutrinos are actually packages of energy, not matter at all.

That would be interesting, and more of the paradigm shift FG is talking about since we can detect them indicating they have some mass... or at least something that can be detected with great difficulty (there's an awesome detector in Canada {Sudbury IIRC} that basically solved the "neutrino problem" Creationists had been claiming for years).

This will then merely tell us that mass-less particles exist which do travel faster than light, but this does not violate the rule Einstein proposed for matter.

Tachyons have been theorized since (at least popularly) the early 1980s. Though if, again, IIRC, they were proposed to lie outside of physics as we knew them then.

Unfortunately for what would excite me, mass-less particles travelling faster than the speed of light is unlikely to help us travel interstellar distances any more rapidly than extrapolations of current technology.

 

[cupid dave]

That would be interesting, and more of the paradigm shift FG is talking about since we can detect them indicating they have some mass... or at least something that can be detected with great difficulty (there's an awesome detector in Canada {Sudbury IIRC} that basically solved the "neutrino problem" Creationists had been claiming for years).



Tachyons have been theorized since (at least popularly) the early 1980s. Though if, again, IIRC, they were proposed to lie outside of physics as we knew them then.

Unfortunately for what would excite me, mass-less particles travelling faster than the speed of light is unlikely to help us travel interstellar distances any more rapidly than extrapolations of current technology.

Yes, that is my point, that these neutrinos are the once hypothtical Tachyons.

 

[Jazer]

If anything it would leave the door open for the development of some sort of warp drive rather than relying on discovering a hyperspace/wormholes or learning to fold space in order to travel the distances interstellar exploration will require.

Space travel is like optical fiber. That is why people talk about a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[acropolis]

Hopefully it's something more interesting than just some systematic error on the part of OPERA.

 

[TheReasoner]

Indeed. The LHC should provide some interesting insights into the subatomic world and the nutrinos travelling faster than light is intriguing. If anything it would leave the door open for the development of some sort of warp drive rather than relying on discovering a hyperspace/wormholes or learning to fold space in order to travel the distances interstellar exploration will require.

Warp 5 mr Zulu. Engage!

To be honest, if you hadn't mentioned Fermilab, I'd have drawn a complete blank. Unless it can be tied to an economic benefit or something that hypes up the public like exobiology, we don't seem too interested in funding grand research projects for research sake.

Which is tragic to be honest. We need research like this in order to advance science and technology. Without this kind of research we would never have had most of the things modern society needs to function.

I think the next insight will be that neutrinos are actually packages of energy, not matter at all.

This will then merely tell us that mass-less particles exist which do travel faster than light, but this does not violate the rule Einstein proposed for matter.

no.. That would still violate the relativity theory. For a speed faster than light you need imaginary mass. Just solve the famous equation for a speed greater than c.
The hypothesized Tachyons have imaginary mass, which is why they can travel faster than light. Of course, so far that's all just a mathematical construction, but who knows about the future. What imaginary mass would be, physically, I have no idea. A new kind of fundamental particle? No idea.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Maybe a new discovery will help justify the building costs by leading to a technological breakthrough.

 

[TheReasoner]

Maybe a new discovery will help justify the building costs by leading to a technological breakthrough.

Well, there's always the internet, or later on html. That alone could justify such projects easily. And of course there are things like MRI, X-rays, nuclear power plants, gps, etc. There are numerous breakthroughs we owe to research projects that have cost a lot of money. Many of which are still not adopted outside of the research world. We have had students go down to CERN to work on a few new electronic devices. I saw an introduction way back, but I have forgotten the details. Thing is, there are so many breakthroughs that came from just building the accelerator that alone should be a motivator. Not to mention the effect it has had on masters level and higher students within many engineering and science disciplines around Europe.

The costs are not that high. Consider it relative the price of weaponry bought for the military and you'll quickly see that the LHC is not all that expenisve. I'm ashamed we do not have more such labs and research projects around the world. But noooo... We need more bombs apparently. And research projects that cost a tiny fraction of a military budget which gives little to no return in positive terms and often very negative results (vs. science which benefits all of mankind) get downsized or cut out entirely because politicians need to be able to show the public they are willing to cut. And cutting where the guys in the white lab coats are, doing stuff which no-one outside their field really understands is easily justified. Which is one reason why SETI is shut down now, and operating off charity. That is a shame. SETI has given real returns in terms of real scientific data, motivation for students, research opportunities and practical experience for many many students. Experience and knowledge which can later benefit everyone on this planet. For a comparatively low price at that.

Grrr. Not that YOU are making me mad of course. But those politicians sure are.