Census Thread??

[Worldslaziestbusker]

I have a link in my email in box stating that an update was made to the thread about the Australian census, but it doesn't lead anywhere, and the thread no longer appears in the AU/NZ threads list. Must have fallen off the internet. (http://www.christianforums.com/t7582311-new/)
Anyhoo, the census is almost upon us, and the prejudiced and innaccurate scare campaign urging non christians to tick christian on their cesus forms, in order to prevent our nation being overrun by mosques, is still circulating via email. I urge christians and non-christians alike to answer the census questions honestly, as lying on the census is both a crime according to federal law, and breaks a commandment according to biblical mandate.
Urging other people to lie doesn't seem to get a mention in the Bible, but I hope its obvious to everyone that it's a pretty low act by any ethical model.
Here's hoping the Christian Forums webspace isn't broken to the extent that this thread falls off the internet as well.
Matt

 

[Born to Watch]

What right does an atheist have to preach morals at Christians and non Christians.

I agree with your sentiments, far less with your argument.

What platform do you demand other atheists base the telling of the truth on. Your wish, your own personal moral standards.
What gives you the right to preach at other atheists your morals.

Do you speed AL...ever. That is a law of the land, its a crime. Why are you not preaching it here. Cheat on your taxes??

Why Argy are you preaching at everyone this message. Why is this issue so important?
What gives you the right to demand honesty.
Remember you are an atheist and your own law is "Do as you wish"
Why cant other atheists lie if they want to. What gives you the right to demand honesty as an atheist.

Argy despises Christ and has made it clear in this thread than anything relating to Jesus is abominable.

If you are a Non Christian and would like to make a statement of faith on census night, then yes please mark down you are a Christian. Honor Jesus, contemplate who he was and is....God the son.
Mark Christian on the census and commit to believing Jesus died for your sins and have eternal life.

Look carefully at the lies of this world, reflect on the violence and wars, deaths and famines, natural disasters and your eternal life. Mark Christian on the census and mark Jesus on your heart.
Mark Christian on the census and Jesus/eternal salvation in heaven on the Lords book of life.
The world is ending, time is fleeting.

 

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Hello Borntowatch
I ask you to be honest, as I intend to be, and you rant that people should tick christian even if they aren't. I think there's enough said there already that being christian and being ethical are not automatically tied together.

Besides that, I do my best to avoid speeding and have only been given one speeding fine in my time as a driver, for going at sixty in a fifty zone. I acknowledge that I was in the wrong and paid my fine willingly. I pay my taxes happily because I like having schools, hospitals and roads, and figure cheating on my tax return is unethical, and that people who do cheat on their taxes and complain about the standards of our public services are hypocritical.
How are you doing on the speeding and taxes front? What about drinking and driving? Are we going to go into every aspect of each other's lives, or can we just acknowledge that no-one is perfect and stick to the issue at hand - being honest on the census form.

I call for honesty because that is demonstrably the best and most ethical footing from which to live in a community.

Also, I am not Argy.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I call for honesty because that is demonstrably the best and most ethical footing from which to live in a community.

Agreed. But ethics and honesty appear to be quite fluid in BtW's world. It would be interesting to see what BtW would have to say if all non-christians were encouraged to tick muslim. I suspect that would be dishonest and unethical in his book.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

What right does an atheist have to preach morals at Christians and non Christians.

The same right any person has to preach morals at anyone else. Why do you think he shouldn't be allowed to?

Do you speed AL...ever. That is a law of the land, its a crime. Why are you not preaching it here. Cheat on your taxes??

Relevance?

What gives you the right to demand honesty as an atheist.

Are you saying that atheists are dishonest by definition? That's pretty offensive and blatantly not true. Oh the irony!

Look carefully at the lies of this world

And add another lie by ticking christian if you're not?

 

[Born to Watch]

Hello Borntowatch
I ask you to be honest, as I intend to be, and you rant that people should tick christian even if they aren't. I think there's enough said there already that being christian and being ethical are not automatically tied together.

No.
I asked people to be honest and I implored them to tick Christian in the census and make an eternal commitment to Jesus, rather than spend eternity in a God forsaken hell, where incidentally the devil will be punished and their will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. No partying or rock music. Only thirst and heat and hate and fear, never ending, eternal.

Besides that, I do my best to avoid speeding and have only been given one speeding fine in my time as a driver, for going at sixty in a fifty zone. I acknowledge that I was in the wrong and paid my fine willingly. I pay my taxes happily because I like having schools, hospitals and roads, and figure cheating on my tax return is unethical, and that people who do cheat on their taxes and complain about the standards of our public services are hypocritical.

So you are perfect, obviously based on your beliefs, as I said.

How are you doing on the speeding and taxes front? What about drinking and driving? Are we going to go into every aspect of each other's lives, or can we just acknowledge that no-one is perfect and stick to the issue at hand - being honest on the census form.

Trust me WLB I am a sinner, I speed and I like a drink, though I wont drive.
I am no super saint, though I try very hard.
Why cant other atheists lie if they want to. What gives you the right to demand honesty as an atheist.

I call for honesty because that is demonstrably the best and most ethical footing from which to live in a community.

Based on what. I know atheists who would laugh at that statement?
What gives you the right to preach your moral standard.

Also, I am not Argy.

Oops silly me, you are not AL and you have my apologies.

 

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Based on what. I know atheists who would laugh at that statement?
What gives you the right to preach your moral standard.

That shows how much you know.

What gives me a right to believe what I want and to speak out on those ideas is the same basic entitlements that give you the right to believe what you want and speak out on those ideas. I think those rights end when our actions begin to infringe on the rights of others.

I am not trying to tell you how to vote, but calling on you to be honest in your actions. Can you fault that without being inherently dishonest or hypocritical?

A campaign using misinformation and playing on people's fears has been telling people how to vote, and I am identifying that campaign as being at odds with aspects of christianity most christians want to promote, those being honesty and fairness. What is wrong with that?

 

[Born to Watch]

The same right any person has to preach morals at anyone else. Why do you think he shouldn't be allowed to?

Absolutely correct BB. No right at all. Atheists have told me I have no right to preach my standards at them.
You are correct BB. WLBs morals are subject to his biased interpretation

Relevance?

Relevance is what he basis his standards on...thats a simple concept.

Are you saying that atheists are dishonest by definition? That's pretty offensive and blatantly not true. Oh the irony!

No its not, completely true and accurate. According to MY moral base. "The Gospel of Jesus" All have sinned and all fall short of Gods glory. Romans 3.22
That means all, everyone.

And add another lie by ticking christian if you're not?

Thats not a lie, AGAIN for those hard of comprehension.
I implored them to tick Christian in the census and make an eternal commitment to Jesus

 

[Born to Watch]

That shows how much you know.

What gives me a right to believe what I want and to speak out on those ideas is the same basic entitlements that give you the right to believe what you want and speak out on those ideas. I think those rights end when our actions begin to infringe on the rights of others.

I am not trying to tell you how to vote, but calling on you to be honest in your actions. Can you fault that without being inherently dishonest or hypocritical?

A campaign using misinformation and playing on people's fears has been telling people how to vote, and I am identifying that campaign as being at odds with aspects of christianity most christians want to promote, those being honesty and fairness. What is wrong with that?

No WLB, I admire the teachings of Jesus as you clearly do. Jesus commanded all mankind, as far back as the old testament to be truthful.
God wrote that honesty is to be cherished and wrote that law on our hearts.
It is an inerrant truth of God. Honesty, not to lie or bear false witness.
It is beautiful a professed atheist can still after thousands and thousands of years, still see the truth of God, in admitting that the truth is a virtue.

Jesus came so that people would find the answer.
Jesus is the truth and the truth will set mankind free.

WLB Gods laws are written on mans hearts, and as you profess lying is wrong, its a touch of Jesus enlightenment that Gods laws are stamped on mans DNA.
Lying is wrong is proof of God. Your atheist spirit cant admit that their is no wrong.
The gospel is Jesus. You have been blessed.

You have taken what is Godly and holy and professed it is necessary. Truth.

 

[Born to Watch]

One more thing Busker, aside from truth what other rules are faultless to atheists.
What other morals are impeachable?

 

[Worldslaziestbusker]

One more thing Busker, aside from truth what other rules are faultless to atheists.
What other morals are impeachable?

Hello Born to Watch
I think don't kill and don't steal are a sound footing to start from. They can be shown to be principles which will benefit all members of a community, and are rules adhered to by all communal species, with transgressors being identified and punished, from bees to vampire bats. These ethical principles certainly pre-date christianity in human history, and probably pre-date our use of language. The societies in which the people enjoy the greatest degree of freedom, enfranchisement and prosperity are those in which people adhere most closely to these key ethical ideas, and when religions attempt to claim it was all their idea, they appear to be involved in a disingenuous attempt to garner credibility by codifying ideas that we agree with at an instinctive level. Yes, people do trangress these rules, but the fact that we are not all murdering thieves shows that the majority of people acknowledge not killing and not stealing as good ideas, whether christians or not.
Most of the other rules that religions attach to their mandates tend to be about worship, food and sex. So long as another person's worship, food preparation and sex life isn't oppressing anyone else, it shouldn't be anyone else's business.

 

[Born to Watch]

Wow sounds like you equate these transgressions as SIN.
Imagine the ramifications of that?

Funny how a strong Police force is necessary to your ideals. Humanity is horrendous.

 

[Born to Watch]

Mankind = Sin = judgement = Eternal Death

Mankind + Sin+ Jesus = redemption = Eternal heaven.

So with that in mind, when marking your census as an atheist. Consider marking Christian as your faith as you accept the free gift of accepting Jesus in to your life.

Marking Christian on the census will be the start of a long and difficult journey, but well worth the reward and you will never be left alone with Jesus as your servant.

 

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Wow sounds like you equate these transgressions as SIN.
Imagine the ramifications of that?

No. To equate these as sins would mean I would never acknowledge those actions as warranted. I would kill to protect the lives of the people I care about without hesitation, and would feel entirely justified in doing so. Are you telling me there are absolutely no circumstances in which you would kill or steal because those things are sins?

You are positing Pascal's wager, encouraging people to pretend beliefs they do not hold. This is another form of lie, and one unlikely to convince an omnipotent being. I cannot believe just because you tell me to. What could you do to convince me to believe, and not just pretend?

Faith is not a free gift. There is a lot of historical and ethical baggage attached to any religion. How do you disassociate yourself from the harm that has been done, and continues to be facilitated by your religion and in the name of your religion?

 

[Born to Watch]

Londons burning, Londons burning and I bet you find in that Pascals wager and all. Mankind is evil. Turn your back and mankind will do something evil.
You preach honesty but I know as a fact you are a liar. Mankind is flawed.
Its human nature. You attack religion as do I.
Sin will be punished.

Jesus said As for me, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all people to myself." John 12.32

Faith in Christ has no baggage. Only accept Jesus and you will be saved

Romans 10.9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Accept Jesus and he will reveal himself to you, take the step on the census form and allow Jesus to work from there.
Tick you are a Christian on the census and say in your heart I will accept Jesus, allow him, allow Jesus.

Jesus said this life and its trials are momentary and light.

Busker asks how I can disassociate myself from the harm done by religion. I am justified and not ashamed because I preach Jesus, not religion. I am not ashamed because I dont preach the corruptible.
I preach what is true and pure and holy, I preach the gospel, Jesus.

Even in Buskers atheism he knows Gods eternal laws are true. Dont steal, dont kill, dont lie. Love. Just as a foundation.
Humanity couldnt evolve such holy laws indelibly stamped on our DNA.
We choose wrong yet we know what is right. We cant remove, cant evolve out of our hearts, Gods perfect laws.

 

[TheDag]

Born to watch you talk about others not comprehending what is written however read the following definition of urge

5. to endeavor to induce or persuade, as by entreaties; entreat or exhort earnestly: to urge a person to greater caution.

Now go back and look at buskers post. He has not edited it. So your claim that he is making demands is nonsense.


Busker is there a source for this email. I have not received it once at any of my email addresses (approx 10). I personally wonder if it was started by similar groups that encouraged people to mark Jedi as their religion.

 

[Born to Watch]

Born to watch you talk about others not comprehending what is written however read the following definition of urge

Now go back and look at buskers post. He has not edited it. So your claim that he is making demands is nonsense.


Busker is there a source for this email. I have not received it once at any of my email addresses (approx 10). I personally wonder if it was started by similar groups that encouraged people to mark Jedi as their religion.

So what Dags.
In the original thread he was preaching that lying was morally wrong.
I just asked where he sourced his morals, what right he had to demand others accept his morale's.
Nonsense? Nonsense is commenting on half a story.
Nonsense is an atheist preaching at Christians and atheists a morale standard based on nothing.

 

[TheDag]

So what Dags.
In the original thread he was preaching that lying was morally wrong.
I just asked where he sourced his morals, what right he had to demand others accept his morale's.
Nonsense? Nonsense is commenting on half a story.
Nonsense is an atheist preaching at Christians and atheists a morale standard based on nothing.

He was not demanding anyone accept his morales. He was urging. There is a difference between demanding and urging. I already provided a definition of urging. They are different things. Simple word comprehension. Sure ask all you like what he bases his morales on. I don't care. Please however stop making false claims that he has demanded we accept his morales unless you can provide the proof. I have not seen any such proof but will happily acknowledge I am wrong if you can show me.

 

[Worldslaziestbusker]

Busker is there a source for this email. I have not received it once at any of my email addresses (approx 10). I personally wonder if it was started by similar groups that encouraged people to mark Jedi as their religion.

Hello TheDag
It has popped through my electronic mail slot in two forms to date, one trying to scare me with all caps and ranting about mosques, and another version trying to play on my fondness for school Easter parades, which I think is the form cited in the original thread about the campaign on this forum, which went missing.
The text varies, but is essentially:

IMPORTANT
THE 2011 CENSUS WILL BE HELD ON AUGUST 9TH
Do not leave the "RELIGION" section blank. Be sure to al least tick "Christian" or your upbringing faith. You can be sure 1,000.000 Muslims WILL tick their box and 10,000,000 Australians will leave it blank and then wonder why a MOSQUE is built in their neighbourhood

The all caps version appeared on the One Nation Party WA website, but they appear to have taken it down since someoned pointed out to them that providing false information on the census is illegal, as is encouraging other people to do so.
Similar themes have been expressed in the letters sections of my local newspapers, though whether this is a concerted campaign of misinformation or independent acts of lying an hypocrisy is unclear.
Cheerio
Matt

PS: Is Born-to-Watch a new avatar for Monarchist/Two Cents/Gilly, or is that level of venom common among Australian christians frequenting this forum?

 

[Born to Watch]

He was not demanding anyone accept his morales. He was urging. There is a difference between demanding and urging. I already provided a definition of urging. They are different things. Simple word comprehension. Sure ask all you like what he bases his morales on. I don't care. Please however stop making false claims that he has demanded we accept his morales unless you can provide the proof. I have not seen any such proof but will happily acknowledge I am wrong if you can show me.

Dags,
In buskers original post on the original thread he stated it was wrong to lie.
Simple.
Dags go ask Busker what he said.