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I am not saying that no jew is not living in the light, for MJ movement owes it debt of gratitude to those Jews who have seen the light and are bringing light to the people in its proper setting. What I am saying is that I beleive this light will continue to spread, and ignite/flash in Jerusalem and from there be a beam for all the world to see.Zayit said:Vis, you don't think any Jews are "living in the light" now?
yod said:I was over at my friends house today and asked him about this.
He said that he does the Passover the way it was commanded to the mixed multitude before the Law was given to Israel at Sinai.
He has a bunch of people over and slaughters a Lamb, drains the blood, put some of the blood on the doorposts of his house, then roasts it and everyone eats it before morning.
He says it has nothing to do with salvation.
visionary said:No, GOd is not a respector of persons, but the jews have known the laws of God for years and years, and when the light comes upon them, they will be living the law in the light, such as we have not seen among the gentiles. It will all be to the glory of God.
yod said:And the Apostles were surely still doing the Passover as long as they were alive. It seems like they would have mentioned a change if it had been instituted upon Yeshua's sacrifice.
I realize it sounds culturally repulsive to envion sacrificing an animal in modern times...but really it was also what everyone had for supper on this night. Families came from all over Israel and the world to camp out on the outskirts of Jerusalem. They brought the Lamb to the priest who made sure it was a spotless animal, then made sure all the blood was drained.
Then they roasted it at their tent and everyone ate it before morning??? Who knows what happens next?
Did they change it much once the Temple was gone?
Yes YHVH chose Avraham to grow his seed in. It grew into an awesome tree and it produced fruit. But many are adorning themselves in and eating the leaves instead of the fruit that is pouring out of it.visionary said:No, GOd is not a respector of persons, but the jews have known the laws of God for years and years, and when the light comes upon them, they will be living the law in the light, such as we have not seen among the gentiles. It will all be to the glory of God.
Again Yod, No change implied after the reserection? This is why they wanted to kill Shaul. This is what brought all his scars. The Good News! We are free in union with Yeshua.25 Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Yerushalayim, for she serves as a slave along with her children. 26 But the Yerushalayim above is free, and she is our mother; 27 for the Tanakh says, "Rejoice, you barren woman who does not bear children! Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor! For the deserted wife will have more children than the one whose husband is with her!"i 28 You, brothers, like Yitz'chak, are children referred to in a promise of God. 29 But just as then the one born according to limited human capability persecuted the one born through the Spirit's supernatural power, so it is now. 30 Nevertheless, what does the Tanakh say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for by no means will the son of the slave woman inherit along with the son of the free woman!" 31 So, brothers, we are children not of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
Again, from the aboved verses why would we "keep" them in the old pattern and shadow when for one we can't because Yeshua took the Temple and it's Torah observances away by COMPLETING it's function. He was the seed it is finished and we can move forward from here.visionary said:than to not keep the feasts and miss out on all the hidden manna contained within
By the very fact, that we keep the feasts with the knowlege of Yeshua in them, changes them from old to new. By the very fact, that our sacrifice is done for us in Yeshua changes that also. If in everything we do is in honor of Yeshua, then it is new and not the old.shimshon said:15 But when God, who picked me out before I was born and called me by his grace, chose 16 to reveal his Son to me, so that I might announce him to the Gentiles, I did not consult anyone; 17 and I did not go up to Yerushalayim to see those who were emissaries before me. Instead, I immediately went off to Arabia and afterwards returned to Dammesek. 18 Not until three years later did I go up to Yerushalayim to make Kefa's acquaintance, and I stayed with him for two weeks, 19 but I did not see any of the other emissaries except Ya'akov the Lord's brother.
1 Then after fourteen years I again went up to Yerushalayim, this time with Bar-Nabba; and I took with me Titus. 2 I went up in obedience to a revelation,
Seems Shaul did not according to his own accounting.
Yes YHVH chose Avraham to grow his seed in. It grew into an awesome tree and it produced fruit. But many are adorning themselves in and eating the leaves instead of the fruit that is pouring out of it.
Living the law in the light? Living in the shadows while the light is shining upon them? How is that possible? To be old wineskines holding new wine? To be an old clothe held together by a new patch? Even Shaul said the Torah was given UNTIL the coming of the seed. That it was a custodian UNTIL the seed came and now we are not under the custodian. He related those who were UNDER the law to the slave woman Hagar, those who received Torah at Mt. Sinai who observe it in Yerushalayim. And us to the free woman, the heavenly Yerushalayim. We are Children of the Promise
Again Yod, No change implied after the reserection? This is why they wanted to kill Shaul. This is what brought all his scars. The Good News! We are free in union with Yeshua.
Again, from the aboved verses why would we "keep" them in the old pattern and shadow when for one we can't because Yeshua took the Temple and it's Torah observances away by COMPLETING it's function. He was the seed it is finished and we can move forward from here.
This is what the Jews were doing and many still. Keeping the feasts and missing out on the hidden manna contained within, Yeshua. I do not see by scripture how we are to keep them in the way "mainstream" MJ has put forth anylonger. In shadow AND in light. In old AND in new.
However before you consider this Hebrew a completed antisemite. Know that I do believe one should be completely familiar and learned in the meaning of the "old" covenant and Mo'edim so as to know the fulfillment and it's purpose. Yes. It was good and for a reason. It helped bring about a people and Yeshua to it's goal. But Torah is not the goal. Yeshua is. Love is. There is no Torah against them. Love YHVH with all your being and your neighbor as yourself. And these words, my words shall BE ON YOUR HEART. Be a light to the world, tell them what Yeshua did for us. Tell them this Good New that the Messiah of the Hebrews has come to save the world. Tell them how he did it. We know because Yeshua gave us the Ruakh, and he has reminded us and founded us in all the Truth. He keeps us on the path and in his will.
Mikhail:
What does your friend say about the scripture that commands that you are not to do this within your own gates but only at the temple.
I had this dicussion with a friend because he trys to force a literalist view of certain scriptures on me in order to trip me up on my Torah Observant perspective.
Pre Law, that is craziness, that was to prevent the Angel of Death that went through the land which is what I said to my friend unless you jave a "now word" that the angel of death is coming again and God has given you another "Now Word" that this is what you need to do it makes not sense to do this.
Karaite Messianic? more labels, that have several definitions depending on who you talk too.
That is a wonderful statement visionary. But I see too many, even here who are 'striving' to accomplish the old pattern. Trying to hold the shadow up to the light and then wonder why the shadows are disappearing before their eyes EVERY time they hold them up to the light. As COTMH points out, you can't 'keep' the feasts like in days of old because for one, Yeshua put an end to the patterns and shadows and brought Light into the world. He torn down the Temple and broke the covenant. Because his children were misusing it. So he took the instructions he gave us then, that would in no way nullify the promise given before it, and took them away from us because we were misusing them. He said it would happen as well. He prophecied it.visionary said:By the very fact, that we keep the feasts with the knowlege of Yeshua in them, changes them from old to new. By the very fact, that our sacrifice is done for us in Yeshua changes that also. If in everything we do is in honor of Yeshua, then it is new and not the old.
yod said:I owe you an apology and it should be public. You are either not the same person you were before your last child was born, or I completely misunderstood you. My guess is the latter.
yod said:When I first jumped back on this forum after a year's absence, it was in a thread where it seemed like you were saying that anyone who wasn't torah-observant was not a believer...and that phrase means different things to different people but I assumed (yes, Zemirah, I assumed) that you were taking a hyper-literal approach to torah-observance.
I'm not the same person Yod. The Ruakh touched my heart again. Drew me back to the path. I believe I mentioned this in a post just before I left. That Yeshua told me just before Ahavah was born to "read it again". I said, WHAT!? I have been reading your words for over 15yrs and you want me to 'read it again'? I laughed because it's something I tell my son over and over. Do it again. So this time you might get it right. So when I realized Yeshua was telling me to 'read it again' my immediate response was laughter. Because my son instantly came into my mind, and I knew I was being 'disciplined'. LOLyod said:I'm still not sure that I understand you completely but you don't even seem like the same person in the last few threads I've read. Obviously I am confused?!?!
Memorial sure, rehearse sure, look forward to the day they come about definitly. But are we going to build again what Yeshua torn down? He took the Temple and the land. Now the land is restored, but to "OLD" covenant followers. Not Yeshua believers. NOT those who see Yeshua as the goal of the Torah.visionary said:The feasts that had their fulfillment in Yeshua, they are a memorial which we will always keep, in memorial format. Those feasts that are still shadows, we rehearsel looking forward to their day when they come true.
One foolish act and you can blow up the whole thing.
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