Caution! Rick Joyner is coming with more "revelations"!

Andrea411 · Dec 6, 2013

Frogster said:
do you ever get a check in your spirit?

do you ever NOT get a check in your spirit or is it that anyone who has an experience you haven't approved is wrong and that your check might really be a little cynicism.

I'm not to familiar with Joyner, not too interested in NAR but I've had visions that changed my life. I know plenty of others who have had visions too. Mine were for personal growth and I haven't talked to any angels but I have friends who have.
I did get a check in my spirit when I read the OP and sometimes when I see that sneaky little frog jumping.. creeps me out.

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

actually his seemingly 3 way lengthy causal chat, was kind of boring. I mean... gosh...he was actually hanging out with Enoch and Elijah, I would imagine something more interesting.

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Andrea411 said:
do you ever NOT get a check in your spirit or is it that anyone who has an experience you haven't approved is wrong and that your check might really be a little cynicism.

I'm not to familiar with Joyner, not too interested in NAR but I've had visions that changed my life. I know plenty of others who have had visions too. Mine were for personal growth and I haven't talked to any angels but I have friends who have.
I did get a check in my spirit when I read the OP and sometimes when I see that sneaky little frog jumping.. creeps me out.

cynicism has a place in the soul, keeps the bad guys out, and does not let the navie thrive.

Andrea411 · Dec 7, 2013

Frogster said:
cynicism has a place in the soul, keeps the bad guys out, and does not let the navie thrive.

There are few teachers, pastors or fellow Christians that I will not disagree with at some point. Any thinking person has an interpretation and or an opinion. What is nice on these forums is you can go back and read about yourself later. I have read so many of your posts and the topic is negative I would look at and weigh the amount of cynicism that is -- I don't want to say clouding your view bc I agree with you, we need discernment and cynicism comes in when our discernment has not protected us in the past. I would just suggest you take a look at whether your being an encourager or a discourager in your overall outlook. Maybe its just this group, but obviously many loving Christians find them edifying. So have a little balance, explain where you see they're right and what you see is wrong. It doesn't mean you have to support them (example NAR) but you can see where people might be in agreement with them.
I came through the LDS church - it taught me a lot about "itching ears" and people saying what others want to hear and the incredible damage it can do. I sometimes see that in charismatic circles. People talking about moving in the Holy Spirit while it is their own spirit they are actually in. On the other hand, in mainline/non-charismatic churches they don't ever prophesy or allow visions, there is nothing to criticize bc there is nothing going on. It is safe, but it reminds me of the fellow that took his one talent and hid it so he could give it back to his lord when he came. The lord was not happy with no increase either.
I'm sure Rick Joyner has been wrong and I'm sure he has much I could learn from him, take the good and get rid of the bad. If they are not leading people astray support those in following the love of Christ and not the visions of man. That way they can learn from Joyner and others yet not get off course.
God bless, andrea

Ajax 777 · Dec 7, 2013

Andrea411 said:
and I'm sure he has much I could learn from him, take the good and get rid of the bad.

Just be careful, sister. Your words ring true, but I just want to caution you to remember that drinking water from poisoned wells can be challenging. Straining poison from water is a risky proposition, since you won't know if you've swallowed any poison until you get sick.

Yitzchak · Dec 7, 2013

Andrea411 said:
There are few teachers, pastors or fellow Christians that I will not disagree with at some point. Any thinking person has an interpretation and or an opinion. What is nice on these forums is you can go back and read about yourself later. I have read so many of your posts and the topic is negative I would look at and weigh the amount of cynicism that is -- I don't want to say clouding your view bc I agree with you, we need discernment and cynicism comes in when our discernment has not protected us in the past. I would just suggest you take a look at whether your being an encourager or a discourager in your overall outlook. Maybe its just this group, but obviously many loving Christians find them edifying. So have a little balance, explain where you see they're right and what you see is wrong. It doesn't mean you have to support them (example NAR) but you can see where people might be in agreement with them.
I came through the LDS church - it taught me a lot about "itching ears" and people saying what others want to hear and the incredible damage it can do. I sometimes see that in charismatic circles. People talking about moving in the Holy Spirit while it is their own spirit they are actually in. On the other hand, in mainline/non-charismatic churches they don't ever prophesy or allow visions, there is nothing to criticize bc there is nothing going on. It is safe, but it reminds me of the fellow that took his one talent and hid it so he could give it back to his lord when he came. The lord was not happy with no increase either.
I'm sure Rick Joyner has been wrong and I'm sure he has much I could learn from him, take the good and get rid of the bad. If they are not leading people astray support those in following the love of Christ and not the visions of man. That way they can learn from Joyner and others yet not get off course.
God bless, andrea

Good advice. Rick Joyner is mainstream enough to have a lot of good and edifying teaching. On the basics , he is solidly Christian. He also has his own distinctive teachings which are debatable. generally speaking it is the distinctive teachings where we find the trouble , but as you mentioned we also find a lot of good. the churches which only give the milk and the basics are safe but very limited.

I don't give my approval or disapproval of Joyner's ministry. Except to say that he is good on the basics and questionable on some of his distinctive beliefs.

His particiapation with NAR is one of those. Even aside from some radical beliefs and a desire to radically reform the church , there is the concern of such a huge and powerful man made organization corrupting even good people with pride. Of course , one can say this about the church as a while and any person who aspires to a position of authority and popularity. Whether the Pope or Billy Graham or Benny Hinn , these platforms can lead to pride and living in a bubble that is out of touch with the average person. I don't say that Joyner has fallen into error , just that there is cause for concern. Another area of concern is the re establishment of the role of the Apostle and the prophet. These are both risky endeavors and worthy of concern.

But even in saying that , I think that being on the cutting edge and being a risk taker makes things exciting. Lots of Biblical heroes played similar roles.

As for visions and personal revelations , it is difficult to find a Charismatic believer , whether a leader or laity that does not lay claim to a personal relationship with the Lord and some level of supernatural personal revelation. I hear people say things like God led me to move or to take this job or to marry this person or a pastor might say God led them to preach that specific sermon. I find nothing extraordinary about a Christian leader claiming to have heard from God. Since Joyner keeps his personal revelations within the confines of the orthodox Christian faith , they are fairly safe. There is no reason for alarm bells and paranoia.

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Andrea411 said:
There are few teachers, pastors or fellow Christians that I will not disagree with at some point. Any thinking person has an interpretation and or an opinion. What is nice on these forums is you can go back and read about yourself later. I have read so many of your posts and the topic is negative… I would look at and weigh the amount of cynicism that is -- I don't want to say clouding your view bc I agree with you, we need discernment and cynicism comes in when our discernment has not protected us in the past. I would just suggest you take a look at whether your being an encourager or a discourager in your overall outlook. Maybe its just this group, but obviously many loving Christians find them edifying. So have a little balance, explain where you see they're right and what you see is wrong. It doesn't mean you have to support them (example NAR) but you can see where people might be in agreement with them.
I came through the LDS church - it taught me a lot about "itching ears" and people saying what others want to hear and the incredible damage it can do. I sometimes see that in charismatic circles. People talking about moving in the Holy Spirit while it is their own spirit they are actually in. On the other hand, in mainline/non-charismatic churches they don't ever prophesy or allow visions, there is nothing to criticize bc there is nothing going on. It is safe, but it reminds me of the fellow that took his one talent and hid it so he could give it back to his lord when he came. The lord was not happy with no increase either.
I'm sure Rick Joyner has been wrong and I'm sure he has much I could learn from him, take the good and get rid of the bad. If they are not leading people astray support those in following the love of Christ and not the visions of man. That way they can learn from Joyner and others yet not get off course.
God bless, andrea

but do you notice, that i often speak of, and stress the overdone, or bizarre, in my ever so cynical manner

Nar is spawning this apostolic super apostle teaching, subjugating young converts to themselves, who get impressed with their 'power', I highly recommend an in depth study of the dynamics Paul fought in his 2 cor letter, he fought off their bragging, visions, domination, taking their money, patting themselves on the backs praising each other, these "super apsotles", more than obvious doctrine, though he did that a little too in 2 Cor.

They were emphasizing themsleves also in Corinth, these hyper anointed ones, like Joyner, and all of the other visionaries today, who hang out with angels all the time, and go in and out of the throne room, who see body parts in heaven, and of course, as these "super apostles" of today say, "bring new revelation".

I however won't fall for it, my shield has a lagre C engraved in it, called cynical.

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Ajax 777 said:
Just be careful, sister. Your words ring true, but I just want to caution you to remember that drinking water from poisoned wells can be challenging. Straining poison from water is a risky proposition, since you won't know if you've swallowed any poison until you get sick.

and the poison can be colorless, and odorless, even palatable, all sugary and sweet.

Alrighty, gotta go, the chariot is outside, Elijah wants to have lunch with me..

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Yitzchak said:
Good advice. Rick Joyner is mainstream enough to have a lot of good and edifying teaching. On the basics , he is solidly Christian. He also has his own distinctive teachings which are debatable. generally speaking it is the distinctive teachings where we find the trouble , but as you mentioned we also find a lot of good. the churches which only give the milk and the basics are safe but very limited.

I don't give my approval or disapproval of Joyner's ministry. Except to say that he is good on the basics and questionable on some of his distinctive beliefs.

His particiapation with NAR is one of those. Even aside from some radical beliefs and a desire to radically reform the church , there is the concern of such a huge and powerful man made organization corrupting even good people with pride. Of course , one can say this about the church as a while and any person who aspires to a position of authority and popularity. Whether the Pope or Billy Graham or Benny Hinn , these platforms can lead to pride and living in a bubble that is out of touch with the average person. I don't say that Joyner has fallen into error , just that there is cause for concern. Another area of concern is the re establishment of the role of the Apostle and the prophet. These are both risky endeavors and worthy of concern.

But even in saying that , I think that being on the cutting edge and being a risk taker makes things exciting. Lots of Biblical heroes played similar roles.

As for visions and personal revelations , it is difficult to find a Charismatic believer , whether a leader or laity that does not lay claim to a personal relationship with the Lord and some level of supernatural personal revelation. I hear people say things like God led me to move or to take this job or to marry this person or a pastor might say God led them to preach that specific sermon. I find nothing extraordinary about a Christian leader claiming to have heard from God. Since Joyner keeps his personal revelations within the confines of the orthodox Christian faith , they are fairly safe. There is no reason for alarm bells and paranoia.

red above, oh, so he is a cutting edge biblical hero, type of guy?

wow..Paul called himself a servant, said he did not really want to speak of his revelations, so people did not think him a biblical hero in 2 cor 12.

6 though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.

notice the underline in verse 6, "i would be speaking the truth", implication being, others were not truthful about their so called revelations and visions...

and Paul's revelations were from God, written in our text, just because one says he has new revelation, does not make it so. So we got Paul the servant, not wanting people to think he is was cool because of visions, who told the truth, vs?????

2 Cor 4:55 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

So the servant DID NOT PREACH HIMSELF..unlike the false apostles of Corinth..See how the text is still relevant today? same flesh, different century.."super apsotles" are all the same lump of leaven, now and then.

Remind you of John 7:18 yet, and today's glory boys, who get attention as visionaries, and those who will give us their own special revelations?

Andrea411 · Dec 7, 2013

Ajax 777 said:
Just be careful, sister. Your words ring true, but I just want to caution you to remember that drinking water from poisoned wells can be challenging. Straining poison from water is a risky proposition, since you won't know if you've swallowed any poison until you get sick.

….funny you say that while the Lord says Mk16... they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

as I said, I learned much by being in a cult. That was that when we keep our eyes on Jesus we can move through the muddy waters…. and our path although not always clear if our hearts are true our way is the WAY of truth. But thank you for the warning, I'm not easily lead. The fact that the Christian church is in thousands of denominations means that we are not saved through correct doctrine or by denomination but by faith in Christ. No man can take that from you. You might be able to give it up…. I'm not sure about that but no one can take it.
I would think if these people are Apostles their burden would be as church planters not authors or Christian celebrities, so time will prove not only to us but to themselves if they are Apostles. Meanwhile I am not fit to judge them. The Lord does that well. I only encourage other believers to be true to Christ and the Holy Spirit will be true to them, sticking closer then a brother.
God bless, andrea

Lulav · Dec 7, 2013

Frogster said:
He as on Bakers sellathon show this morning, with a bit of self abasement, to hide the bragging.

He was telling about all of these encounters with Elijah, and even talking with Enoch, sounded like lengthy chats with them too.

He says people beg him, to learn about supernatural stuff, as he said few know this insight/path, of course, he does though. Jim Baker sat there like a young boy, just drinking this in. Sorry, with all due respect to Jim, that is what I saw, perceptions come at us, and we can't help but to notice..

Rick, as most know is one of those NAR super apostles running around out there. They make no apology for their self proclaimed status.

He says, that they said, that we will all look so happy, that the world will think we are, ummmm...retar--ded. Sorry for the word, but just quoting him. I might be wrong, but I don't think Baker liked that particular comment though, because he is always using fear, to sell his products to survive the end times tribulation, so we have a conflict there, be happy all the time, or scared enough to buy Baker's survival solar generator and canned foods!

As usual, for the most part, it was all about his revelations and visions...he says he used to have to go to his mountain retreat, to get his revelations, but wow...now they are almost always being downloaded, he said he ascended, with more insights into the supernatural, and is eager to share them with us!

Just one more following in the footsteps of Paul

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Lulav said:
Just one more following in the footsteps of Paul

naaaa paul fought them...and Luke gives Paul support, that Paul did not ask for, big difference, and let me know if you want alot of text from Luke, that support Paul, and words from James and peter that do too...

oh heck, i will post it next....since I know how you feel about Paul, maybe this will help...thanks! frog. It's an old post, while I addressed an MJ in the GT section, who was against Paul..tee hee..

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

Read this, and tell me if Luke does not witness Paul.

Peter called Paul scripture in 2 Peter 3:16.

So when Luke says the Holy Spirit in Acts 13, sent out Paul, along with the prophets sending him, that does not support Paul?

When Luke says Paul was a chosen instrument, as spoken by the Lord in acts 9:15, repeated in Acts 26, that does not support Paul?

When Luke records Ananias a disciple going to Paul in Acts 9, that does not witness Paul.

James called Paul his beloved brother in Acts 15, as did Peter, in 2 Peter 3.

A Jewish prophet named Silas, started churches with Paul. There is a good one!

When the demons in acts 19, recognized the same Spirit in Paul, as Jesus, that does not support Paul?

When the very respected Barnabas, the man of faith in Acts 4 and 11, went to get Paul, that does not support Paul?

When Luke records Jesus in acts 18, 22, 23, telling Paul to keep going, without any correction TO HIS MESSAGE, that does not WITNESS Paul?

When an angel in acts 27 supports Paul, that does not witness Paul?

When Torah knowing Aquila and Priscilla travel with Paul, that does not confirm Paul?

When the council in acts 15 agreed with Paul, and his gospel, as per recorded in Galatians 2, that does not WITNESS Paul? They also called him “our beloved brother Paul”, who risked his life for the Lord, and Peter talked about his beloved brother Paul again, who was given wisdom, obviously from God in 2 peter 3.

When Torah knowing Timothy travels with Paul, along with Luke himself, that does not support Paul?

Do the miracles recorded by Luke, Acts 19:11 etc, saying GOD did miracles through Paul, testify about Paul?

The churches of Judea, praised God, because of Paul, Galatians 1:24,

When Luke says THE WORD OF THE LORD, was spread by Paul in Acts 19, that does not witness Paul?

Acts 14:3 at Iconium, Luke says God was testifying to the grace Paul preached, that saved Jew and Greek. The Gospel of grace, that of Acts 20:24.

In Acts 19:6, Luke records that after Paul placed his hands on some disciples, they received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and prophecied. Good witness there too…

Acts 16, God sent an earthquake to free Paul, pretty good testimony there too.

gideons300 · Dec 7, 2013

Ajax 777 said:
Just be careful, sister. Your words ring true, but I just want to caution you to remember that drinking water from poisoned wells can be challenging. Straining poison from water is a risky proposition, since you won't know if you've swallowed any poison until you get sick.

I agree Ajax. and to make this a real miracle, I am in basic agreement with Frogster. Froggy, nice to be in the same room and not be found diagreeing, LOL.

Here is the issue I have. What may seem like a little error to begin with can lead us far, far away from grounding truth if we do not lean much on prayer and the counsel of the Word. We need the rock of the truth of the word of God as an anchor to keep us stable.

What is disturbing is that it is the Spirit-filled community where much of the error is found. Should we not be the ones leading in wisdom on how to walk so as to please our God? We do not see Baptists falling into craziness. Why? As staunch as they can be, they still seem to regard the Word with reverence. Why is this? I believe Satan puts his deception where there is greatest chance of danger to his kingdom. Unfortunately, many a good believer has been led into pastures that cannot sustain life.

I can remember in the early years of the Charismatic movement, and we seemed much more grounded and Word dependant. Everyone seemed to carry a Bible to church. No, we were not perfect, but we were so thrilled to have life, excitement, after years in traditional church that our hunger and love for the Bible seemed to protect us. There was far mnore balance then. But our protection did not last long, and the prosperity gospel, which made it about US, rather than us losing our lives to find Him in us, took hold. It has seemed to be one craziness after another since then with many wanting to feel something that they have no filter to catch the poison going down. Good analogy by the way, Ajax.

Blessings,

Gideon

Frogster · Dec 7, 2013

gideons300 said:
I agree Ajax. and to make this a real miracle, I am in basic agreement with Frogster. Froggy, nice to be in the same room and not be found diagreeing, LOL.

Here is the issue I have. What may seem like a little error to begin with can lead us far, far away from grounding truth if we do not lean much on prayer and the counsel of the Word. We need the rock of the truth of the word of God as an anchor to keep us stable.

What is disturbing is that it is the Spirit-filled community where much of the error is found. Should we not be the ones leading in wisdom on how to walk so as to please our God? We do not see Baptists falling into craziness. Why? As staunch as they can be, they still seem to regard the Word with reverence. Why is this? I believe Satan puts his deception where there is greatest chance of danger to his kingdom. Unfortunately, many a good believer has been led into pastures that cannot sustain life.

I can remember in the early years of the Charismatic movement, and we seemed much more grounded and Word dependant. Everyone seemed to carry a Bible to church. No, we were not perfect, but we were so thrilled to have life, excitement, after years in traditional church that our hunger and love for the Bible seemed to protect us. There was far mnore balance then. But our protection did not last long, and the prosperity gospel, which made it about US, rather than us losing our lives to find Him in us, took hold. It has seemed to be one craziness after another since then with many wanting to feel something that they have no filter to catch the poison going down. Good analogy by the way, Ajax.

Blessings,

Gideon

YES, AMEN, IT IS GOOD TO AGREE, AND YOU BRING OUT A GOOD POINT, ONE OF THER MENTALITIES IN CERTAIN MOVEMENTS, IS TO GET AWAY FROM THE "TIRED OLD BIBLE", AND RECEIVE THEIR 'NEW REVELATIONS"

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I JUST LOOKED UP, AND SAW THAT I HAD THE CAPS ON...

Andrea411 · Dec 7, 2013

Frogster said:
but do you notice, that i often speak of, and stress the overdone, or bizarre, in my ever so cynical manner

Nar is spawning this apostolic super apostle teaching, subjugating young converts to themselves, who get impressed with their 'power', I highly recommend an in depth study of the dynamics Paul fought in his 2 cor letter, he fought off their bragging, visions, domination, taking their money, patting themselves on the backs praising each other, these "super apsotles", more than obvious doctrine, though he did that a little too in 2 Cor.

They were emphasizing themsleves also in Corinth, these hyper anointed ones, like Joyner, and all of the other visionaries today, who hang out with angels all the time, and go in and out of the throne room, who see body parts in heaven, and of course, as these "super apostles" of today say, "bring new revelation".

I however won't fall for it, my shield has a lagre C engraved in it, called cynical.

was Jesus cynical?

Yitzchak · Dec 7, 2013

Andrea411 said:
was Jesus cynical?

No. But Jesus does have an angry side. The scripture records that he got angry a few times. So there is a place for godly correction and hatred for sin.

Jesus saw things with 100% clarity and that did not require cynicism. As a matter of fact , a cynical attitude actually makes a person less discerning. These past few threads are examples of that. No evidence is given , and assumptions are made. Cynicism leads to false accusations and Jesus loves what is true , not railroading someone and/or bearing false witness against someone. Cynicism exalts someone's suspicions to the level of truth. A dangerous proposition , indeed.

Just imagine if our criminal justice systems were run this way. A cynical judge would declare you guilty with no evidence. His logic would be that crime exists and therefore you must be guilty. A police officer would pull you over and give you a ticket even though there was no evidence of you doing anything wrong. his logic would be that criminals exist and police give tickets , and so therefore you must be guilty. His cynical attitude would justify his unrighteous behavior in his own mind.

I am grateful that the justice system in America sets a higher standard than cynicism and I am thankful that God sets a higher standard. True discernment is based on truth , not suspicions.

Ajax 777 · Dec 7, 2013

Yitzchak said:
No. But Jesus does have an angry side. The scripture records that he got angry a few times. So there is a place for godly correction and hatred for sin.

Jesus saw things with 100% clarity and that did not require cynicism. As a matter of fact , a cynical attitude actually makes a person less discerning. These past few threads are examples of that. No evidence is given , and assumptions are made. Cynicism leads to false accusations and Jesus loves what is true , not railroading someone and/or bearing false witness against someone. Cynicism exalts someone's suspicions to the level of truth. A dangerous proposition , indeed.

Just imagine if our criminal justice systems were run this way. A cynical judge would declare you guilty with no evidence. His logic would be that crime exists and therefore you must be guilty. A police officer would pull you over and give you a ticket even though there was no evidence of you doing anything wrong. his logic would be that criminals exist and police give tickets , and so therefore you must be guilty. His cynical attitude would justify his unrighteous behavior in his own mind.

I am grateful that the justice system in America sets a higher standard than cynicism and I am thankful that God sets a higher standard. True discernment is based on truth , not suspicions.

Incredibly wise and balanced words.

Is it not possible that both sides of this issue have merit?
Not concerning cynicism, but perhaps not failing to diligently search out every matter, and even then STILL remaining watchfully hopeful? Even good men and sincere practitioners can be turned aside if caught unawares, and sometimes fear is the only sound approach. The end result should be meekness, resolve, loving kindness and guarded vigilance.

It is indeed a narrow path we are to walk.

Lulav · Dec 7, 2013

Frogster said:
naaaa paul fought them...and Luke gives Paul support, that Paul did not ask for, big difference, and let me know if you want alot of text from Luke, that support Paul, and words from James and peter that do too...

oh heck, i will post it next....since I know how you feel about Paul, maybe this will help...thanks! frog. It's an old post, while I addressed an MJ in the GT section, who was against Paul..tee hee..

tee hee , I was referring to Paul Crouch

gideons300 · Dec 7, 2013

Frogster said:
YES, AMEN, IT IS GOOD TO AGREE, AND YOU BRING OUT A GOOD POINT, ONE OF THER MENTALITIES IN CERTAIN MOVEMENTS, IS TO GET AWAY FROM THE "TIRED OLD BIBLE", AND RECEIVE THEIR 'NEW REVELATIONS"

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPS, I JUST LOOKED UP, AND SAW THAT I HAD THE CAPS ON...

I knew you were not shouting at me, LOL. You are still my brother in the Lord. One thing about us, we both seem to be stubborn cusses, and God can use a lot more that believe what they believe and are willing to fight for it. Be blessed. May our future interactions bring us closer to agreeing rather than further away so that God might be glorified, amen?

Hope your Saturday is going well.

Blessings,

Gids

Caution! Rick Joyner is coming with more "revelations"!

Andrea411

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Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Andrea411

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God is the Truth, not an opinion.

יצחק

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

Andrea411

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Y'shua is His Name

Galatians is the best!

Galatians is the best!

gideons300

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Galatians is the best!

Andrea411

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יצחק

God is the Truth, not an opinion.

Y'shua is His Name

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