Cause and Effect?

[Dave Darling]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

 

[Halbhh]

God as Creator of Nature instantly implies that God created how Nature operates -- sometimes called 'the laws of nature', which we also refer to as the 'physics' of Nature.

So, what we call 'cause and effect' in the natural world is also called 'physics'.

A simple example (and good approximation in most places with macro (not atomic size but much larger) objects) of how nature operates is shown in Newton's Laws of motion:

1. An object at rest remains at rest, and an object in motion remains in motion at constant speed and in a straight line unless acted on by an unbalanced force.
2. The acceleration of an object depends on the mass of the object and the amount of force applied.
3. Whenever one object exerts a force on another object, the second object exerts an equal and opposite on the first.

Newton’s Laws of Motion | Glenn Research Center | NASA

Sir Isaac Newton’s laws of motion explain the relationship between a physical object and the forces acting upon it. Understanding this information provides us with the basis of modern physics. What are Newton’s Laws of Motion? An object at rest remains at rest, and an object in motion remains in...

www1.grc.nasa.gov

These aren't accidental, nor do they require God to constantly make effort for Nature to continue to operate.... He designed it to begin with and it works.... (He is competent, able...)

And, just like a carpenter that builds a house is not trapped inside it -- the carpenter can make a new door with his tools at any moment he choses -- so also of course the Creator of this physics would not be bound by the physics of this Universe, we can expect.

(This for instance immediately implies interesting things, such as that formulation mere time duration of Creation is irrelevant to God and to scripture, because God isn't constricted by time. Time isn't even slightly affecting God or His actions. A 'day' for Him can be a thousand years, a billion years....

2 Peter 3:8 - The Day of the Lord

Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

biblehub.com

Any length of time is like any other length of time for Him....

So, when we realize this Universe is about 14 billion years old that is interesting, but it fits the Bible very perfectly....

God can alter time whenever He chooses.

Joshua 10:13 - The Day the Sun Stood Still

So the sun stood still and the moon stopped until the nation took vengeance upon its enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? So the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.

biblehub.com

14 Is anything too difficult or too wonderful for the Lord? At the appointed time, when the season [for her delivery] comes, I will return to you and Sarah will have a son.” (at about age 90)


17 ‘Ah Lord God! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! There is nothing too difficult or too wonderful for You

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 18:14, Jeremiah 32:17, Jeremiah 32:27, Luke 18:27 - Amplified Bible

Is anything too difficult or too wonderful for the LORD? At the appointed time, when the season [for her delivery] comes, I will return to you and Sarah will have a son.”

www.biblegateway.com

This is part of how one can realize the notions like Young Earth Creationism are entirely beside the point. God isn't controlled by what we call 'time' and so 6 days for Him are any length of time, perhaps 4.5 billion years, etc.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

God created all fact, even reality itself, or he is not God.

Part of this discussion is the fact that our way of putting things is necessarily, well, shall we say, apprehending, but not attaining. Our arguments, even our arguments from logic, depend on logic. That is, when we stray beyond what seems to us logical, we don't know how to think.

The things we assume as brute fact (base fact, irreducible, lowest common denominator), are not, really, except as set up for us by God, (who is, of himself, the only brute fact). Cause and effect is necessary for our logical thinking, and our logical thinking also demands that as God is first cause, and creator of all subsequent effects, NONE of them created him, nor caused him, nor is he obligated to them. We are bound by many things —gravity, time, cause-and-effect, physical laws— but he is not; yet they are in some way, I think, representative of his character, just as is beauty, balance, math (logic), efficiency and so on.

God can obligate himself to whatever he chooses, but he does not owe the same compulsion to them that we do, as if they were from outside himself. Even those things from outside himself that WE see him responsible to uphold according to his word (such as answering prayer) are none of them actually from outside himself, as he is the one who caused them to begin with. I say that WE see him as obligated but we see it wrong. He doesn't need to consider whether it is necessary to keep his word. —Another example, Justice: Certainly WE see him reacting to sin with Justice, but not only is Justice what he does and what he is like, but even the sin to which he reacts, is caused, by long chains of causation, by his creating things precisely as he did, to include creating Satan for this use of him.

It's not like God couldn't realize his mistake and wipe all sinfulness. It's that God INTENDED for there to be sin, for his own plans and purposes. (I am careful not to say that God is the author of sin, but he certainly set things up for Satan (Lucifer) to rebel and the causal chain has descended from there.)

 

[Halbhh]

God created all fact, even reality itself, or he is not God.

Part of this discussion is the fact that our way of putting things is necessarily, well, shall we say, apprehending, but not attaining. Our arguments, even our arguments from logic, depend on logic. That is, when we stray beyond what seems to us logical, we don't know how to think.

The things we assume as brute fact (base fact, irreducible, lowest common denominator), are not, really, except as set up for us by God, (who is, of himself, the only brute fact). Cause and effect is necessary for our logical thinking, and our logical thinking also demands that as God is first cause, and creator of all subsequent effects, NONE of them created him, nor caused him, nor is he obligated to them. We are bound by many things —gravity, time, cause-and-effect, physical laws— but he is not; yet they are in some way, I think, representative of his character, just as is beauty, balance, math (logic), efficiency and so on.

God can obligate himself to whatever he chooses, but he does not owe the same compulsion to them that we do, as if they were from outside himself. Even those things from outside himself that WE see him responsible to uphold according to his word (such as answering prayer) are none of them actually from outside himself, as he is the one who caused them to begin with. I say that WE see him as obligated but we see it wrong. He doesn't need to consider whether it is necessary to keep his word. —Another example, Justice: Certainly WE see him reacting to sin with Justice, but not only is Justice what he does and what he is like, but even the sin to which he reacts, is caused, by long chains of causation, by his creating things precisely as he did, to include creating Satan for this use of him.

It's not like God couldn't realize his mistake and wipe all sinfulness. It's that God INTENDED for there to be sin, for his own plans and purposes. (I am careful not to say that God is the author of sin, but he certainly set things up for Satan (Lucifer) to rebel and the causal chain has descended from there.)

I think there isn't even any way at all to have beings that have intelligence and agency (autonomy, ability to choose actions) that could not ever do anything evil: If one programmed angels or humans to be only able to do certain good actions, then they'd no longer have...intelligence, agency...and they'd not be able to truly worship God in a meaningful way (because in that case of rigid programming they'd be only like a machine repeating some songs, etc.).

Without that real freedom/agency, we could not even love like we can.

Ergo, we can simply expect everything here on Earth is the best possible scenario: like a garden that is organic and it grows some wonderful plants, but because it's organic of course some weeds grow also.

God didn't want an artificial (dead) diorama of a garden apparently, but the real thing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I think there isn't even any way at all to have beings that have intelligence and agency (autonomy, ability to choose actions) that could not ever do anything evil: If one programmed angels or humans to be only able to do certain good actions, then they'd no longer have...intelligence, agency...and they'd not be able to truly worship God in a meaningful way (because in that case of rigid programming they'd be only like a machine repeating some songs, etc.).

Without that real freedom/agency, we could not even love like we can.

Ergo, we can simply expect everything here on Earth is the best possible scenario: like a garden that is organic and it grows some wonderful plants, but because it's organic of course some weeds grow also.

God didn't want an artificial (dead) diorama of a garden apparently, but the real thing.

"...to have..." I hope is somewhat restricted. That is, 'we have' God, in whom there is no evil, and never does anything evil, unless you mean by 'evil', actions catastrophic toward his creation. 'We have' the Bride of Christ, who is without blemish, and will never do anything sinful. And we have no indication that for a long time now, angels are able to sin, nor that demons are able to repent.

 

[Stephen3141]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

Demonstrate that God is not bound by ANYTHING. I think that this is your model of God, that you are trying to impose on him.

I'm favoring No!
As someone wise in formal logic noted, l logical causality does not specify time stamps. In formal logic, in a material implication, the "cause" could possibly exist in a time after the "effect". The rules of formal logic, do not necessitate time stamps.

If you have a material implication, A ==> B
then, the only constraints are if A is true, then B must be true.
AND, if B is false, then A must be false.

Which brings up the question of whether or not there can be truth, if there is no causality.

If it is true that God has certain characteristics, do those characteristics cause the truthfulness of them?
Does God cause himself, or does he simply exist with specific characteristics?

Anyway. You can imagine formal logic as describing the RELATIONSHIP between things. And this relationship is "logical causality". But it is a relationship that is outside of time.

 

[Stephen3141]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

If time is a created dimension, then God must have been outside of time.

If it takes time to do anything, then God creating the universe took time.

We can accept that God created the spatial and temporal dimensions.
But how did he do that, outside of time?

I'm trying to point out that it makes no sense to try to project time, back, to the act of creation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

If time is a created dimension, then God must have been outside of time.

If it takes time to do anything, then God creating the universe took time.

We can accept that God created the spatial and temporal dimensions.
But how did he do that, outside of time?

I'm trying to point out that it makes no sense to try to project time, back, to the act of creation.

How old was Adam when God made him?

A good philosophical assessment of God's necessary attributes ends up with the fact that NOTHING can control God or make him respond to it, unless he caused it to do so. (Prayer by his creatures, for example). Another that is easy to misuse is the notion that what God makes is 'of his nature', or according to his 'personality', whatever that means.

Anyhow, I'm saying that to say this: That God being 'outside of' time means that to him, it may well be that he spoke it all 'instantly' into existence, the completed product, and time is only an 'envelope' within which cause-and-effect is the means by which he did it. Part of the problem with describing this, of course, is our limited experience and comprehension. I have to say, "outside of" and "instantly" and "envelope" to give some idea of what I think I mean.

 

[Bob Crowley]

The formal laws of formal logic, like the laws of physics, don't make anything do anything. They simply describe logical or physical processes.

Two billiard balls hitting each other might display the law of the conservation of momentum. But that law didn't make the billiard balls collide or move - it just described what happened.

Our perception of time is not due to time itself - it's due to change. We see the sun appear to move across the sky, the hands or digital screen on our watches and clocks appear to change, and we're only aware of time in this regard.

So when we talk about "Time" are we actually talking about something that actually exists, or are we observing the action of God in keeping things going at what we might call a "steady state" - the atoms vibrate at a set rate for example, the light of a certain frequency doesn't change, and the forces between and within atoms cause billiard balls to collide and bounce back.

There was an article referred to in the Catholic section which stated the water we drink is probably billions of years old. Quite possibly the very molecules are exactly the same ones that were made when they were created.

And in all that "Time", time itself didn't do anything.

 

[dzheremi]

Cause and effect being a created thing kind of calls into question what it means for something to be 'created'. This is like asking "Did God create famine?" I mean, maybe, depending on how you look at it (certainly nothing is outside of God's purview, whether directly 'ordered' to occur or not), but I don't see any problem with saying that any particular famine is or can be the result of poor land management, inefficient distribution systems, corruption, etc., and none of those things necessarily 'need' a creator behind them, let alone The Creator. Many things arise out of a complex interplay of various factors that occur once the overall 'system' is formed or forming -- e.g., inefficient distribution systems may or may not be 'designed' to be as they are, insofar as they may arise as the result of many small obstacles in the way of the farmer, the coffee grower, or whoever else is trying to connect to the next link in the chain to get their product ultimately to market and sold. On the other end of the scale, they may be created so as to punish this or that population, as in a civil war situation wherein one province is in rebellion against a central government that has the power to order food shipments blocked or rerouted from trouble areas.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The formal laws of formal logic, like the laws of physics, don't make anything do anything. They simply describe logical or physical processes.

Sure they do! They are the policemen of thought and conversation. If something doesn't add up or make sense, they are there, lights a-flashin'

 

[Bob Crowley]

No they don't. If I add $2 and $2 I get $4 as per the laws of logic (mathematical logic in this case).

But the rules of arithmetic didn't do anything. They just described what I did with my coins.

 

[CoreyD]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

The beginning is outside of cause and effect. Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

 

[CoreyD]

It's not like God couldn't realize his mistake and wipe all sinfulness. It's that God INTENDED for there to be sin, for his own plans and purposes. (I am careful not to say that God is the author of sin, but he certainly set things up for Satan (Lucifer) to rebel and the causal chain has descended from there.)

This is quite interesting to me. I've never heard it before.
What has led you to conclude that God intended for there to be sin, and that God set things up for Satan to rebel?
How would you normally answer the question, Would that not make God responsible not only for all evil, but also make him guilty of being unfair to Adam and Eve for setting them up for a fall?

I'll like to ask, though, do you think Adam and Eve were ready to face Satan (some have likened Adam and Eve to children - like leaving inexperienced children to the wiles of an very experienced and cunning adult)? What do you think about that?

Also, just so that I am clear, and not misunderstanding; When you say, God "certainly set things up for Satan (Lucifer) to rebel", do you mean, God created the conditions that would test Satan's loyalty, or do you mean, God made Satan the way he is?

 

[FireDragon76]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

There are plenty of philosophers that would dispute the validity of the notion of cause, eg., David Hume.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Dave Darling said:
Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

The beginning is outside of cause and effect. Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Yes, I agree with that. However, there is reason to believe that God set Cause-and-Effect in 'motion', because it is of his own very nature. I call it an "invention" sometimes, but that is to present the difference between it being made by God, vs being Brute Fact in and of itself.

For God to be God, he had to even "invent" very reality. I can accept no other God. Omnipotence is First Cause by definition.

This is quite interesting to me. I've never heard it before.
What has led you to conclude that God intended for there to be sin, and that God set things up for Satan to rebel?
How would you normally answer the question, Would that not make God responsible not only for all evil, but also make him guilty of being unfair to Adam and Eve for setting them up for a fall?

I'll like to ask, though, do you think Adam and Eve were ready to face Satan (some have likened Adam and Eve to children - like leaving inexperienced children to the wiles of an very experienced and cunning adult)? What do you think about that?

Also, just so that I am clear, and not misunderstanding; When you say, God "certainly set things up for Satan (Lucifer) to rebel", do you mean, God created the conditions that would test Satan's loyalty, or do you mean, God made Satan the way he is?

God made Lucifer the being that he was, but God intended that Lucifer rebel, and that everything would unfold subsequently to that, precisely in the way that it has unfolded.

It's not just that this makes sense, nor even that it is Biblical (which it is), but the opposite is logically self-defeating. The opposite implies causation by 'Chance' or 'Random' causing fact to become fact, which is logically self-contradictory.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes, I agree with that. However, there is reason to believe that God set Cause-and-Effect in 'motion', because it is of his own very nature. I call it an "invention" sometimes, but that is to present the difference between it being made by God, vs being Brute Fact in and of itself.

I don't understand what you mean by "God set Cause-and-Effect in 'motion'".
Can you explain, please?

For God to be God, he had to even "invent" very reality. I can accept no other God. Omnipotence is First Cause by definition.

""invent" very reality"?
Do you mean create what is?

God made Lucifer the being that he was, but God intended that Lucifer rebel, and that everything would unfold subsequently to that, precisely in the way that it has unfolded.

You said,

"God made Lucifer the being that he was"​

"God intended that Lucifer rebel"​

So, are you saying God made Lucifer good, but God wanted (intended) Lucifer to be bad - rebel?
Or are you saying God made Lucifer rebellious, because God wanted (intended) Lucifer to rebel?
Did God push the bad button (so to speak) on a good person, or created a bad person?

It's not just that this makes sense, nor even that it is Biblical (which it is), but the opposite is logically self-defeating. The opposite implies causation by 'Chance' or 'Random' causing fact to become fact, which is logically self-contradictory.

You didn't tell me how you answer the question -
Would that not make God responsible not only for all evil, but also make him guilty of being unfair to Adam and Eve for setting them up for a fall?

I really would like to hear you on this. It's really important.
Do you think Adam and Eve were ready to face Satan (some have likened Adam and Eve to children - like leaving inexperienced children to the wiles of an very experienced and cunning adult)?

 

[Soyeong]

Something interesting- it makes sense to say that God created time, He is outside time, He is not bound by it! However did God also create cause and effect? I am leaning toward yes as God created all things and is not bound by anything, nothing at all! If God created cause and effect He is not bound by it, God is outside of cause and effect! It is pretty wild to think about this!

Saying that God is outside of cause and effect is like saying that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Yes, I agree with that. However, there is reason to believe that God set Cause-and-Effect in 'motion', because it is of his own very nature. I call it an "invention" sometimes, but that is to present the difference between it being made by God, vs being Brute Fact in and of itself.

I don't understand what you mean by "God set Cause-and-Effect in 'motion'".
Can you explain, please?

Human reasoning is very closely associated with the words they use, and the mindset/worldview in which they are accustomed to reasoning. So it is difficult for me to put words to some thoughts in such a way as to produce in the reader the same thought I had, concerning something so simple as "God created".

Mark Quayle said:
For God to be God, he had to even "invent" very reality. I can accept no other God. Omnipotence is First Cause by definition.

""invent" very reality"?
Do you mean create what is?

Yes. Reality itself. Made 'Fact Itself' —this structure of "what is", within which and by which we operate, (even if we don't understand it).

Mark Quayle said:
God made Lucifer the being that he was, but God intended that Lucifer rebel, and that everything would unfold subsequently to that, precisely in the way that it has unfolded.

You said,
"God made Lucifer the being that he was""God intended that Lucifer rebel"
So, are you saying God made Lucifer good, but God wanted (intended) Lucifer to be bad - rebel?
Or are you saying God made Lucifer rebellious, because God wanted (intended) Lucifer to rebel?
Did God push the bad button (so to speak) on a good person, or created a bad person?

You have to realize, that these words we use —particularly when we use them to describe God— don't convey what it means for God to do the things we use the words to describe: To say, "God wanted", is not at all the same as to say "Jimmy wanted". In fact, even the phrase: "God intended", does not imply anything except the fact that God did what he did, (and that for his own purposes, and for our final good). There is no implication of ruined creation or failure —not even near-failure, at least on God's part— but an implication, since he is God, of complete success of whatever he set out to accomplish, which includes everything that he spoke into existence. We have a very stunted, (and self-centered) point of view to put our words to describe God. But that's pretty much all we have, and we can't help but talk about him!

In the end, this question boils down to: Did God create sin? No, God did not create sin. But he did set in place everything that would result in sin, for the express reason that he would become our Redeemer, and we would become his Dwelling Place.


Mark Quayle said:
It's not just that this makes sense, nor even that it is Biblical (which it is), but the opposite is logically self-defeating. The opposite implies causation by 'Chance' or 'Random' causing fact to become fact, which is logically self-contradictory.

You didn't tell me how you answer the question -
Would that not make God responsible not only for all evil, but also make him guilty of being unfair to Adam and Eve for setting them up for a fall?

I really would like to hear you on this. It's really important.
Do you think Adam and Eve were ready to face Satan (some have likened Adam and Eve to children - like leaving inexperienced children to the wiles of an very experienced and cunning adult)?

No. They were not ready for the serpent's trickery and lies. But they were prepared precisely for the result of their encounter. God INTENDED that they disobey, for his own purposes, and that, for our own good. If there had been no fall, there would have been only Eden, not knowledge of Good and Evil, and we would have been only intelligent animals.

Concerning the implication that God is, then, "responsible" for all evil: Again, our thinking is human, and not large enough to see God's position in relation to his creation. There is no need to excuse God from any involvement in the fact of sin, as though it were an accident or morally reprehensible of him or something. We, in our moral 'childhood' consider morality to be a universal matter, and here we are considering questions of his submission to his own rule. SIN is rebellion against God. It is therefore logically vapid to think of God being responsible for sin in that meaning.

You are right —it IS important. And it seems to me it should not be so difficult to put it into reasonable words. But logic demands it, and Scripture also demonstrates it, that God created and controlled all fact, such that sin did enter the world, and corrupt us. It was no accident. Maybe in ages past, the different point-of-view people had concerning the necessary nature of God, made it easier for them to consider him doing what he did. But for anyone to develop it logically would take a lot more than one post on this forum. Maybe the best concise way I can put it is to say that he is above all this.

I wish I could find the way one guy put it. One way to see it, has to do with the fact that we are moral children, and all we want to know is what is right and what is wrong, and to be self-determining about it all. But God has the right of creator, to make us responsible for sin that we were unable to avoid, if he so chooses, and to be just in doing so. That's a hard pill to swallow, but I find it glorifying to him beyond description. He is that much above us.

 

[CoreyD]

Thank you.

Human reasoning is very closely associated with the words they use, and the mindset/worldview in which they are accustomed to reasoning. So it is difficult for me to put words to some thoughts in such a way as to produce in the reader the same thought I had, concerning something so simple as "God created".

I understand create to be an action.
Cause and effect though, is a process involving an action or event, and a result.
So, when I think of someone setting an event and result in motion, I think of determining how everything will be.
I didn't want to be assuming you said or meant something you did not say, so I asked you to explain, so that I could understand you.

You have to realize, that these words we use —particularly when we use them to describe God— don't convey what it means for God to do the things we use the words to describe: To say, "God wanted", is not at all the same as to say "Jimmy wanted". In fact, even the phrase: "God intended", does not imply anything except the fact that God did what he did, (and that for his own purposes, and for our final good. There is no implication of ruined creation or failure —not even near-failure, at least on God's part— but an implication, since he is God, of complete success of whatever he set out to accomplish, which includes everything that he spoke into existence. We have a very stunted, (and self-centered) point of view to put our words to describe God. But that's pretty much all we have, and we can't help but talk about him!

In the end, this question boils down to: Did God create sin? No, God did not create sin. But he did set in place everything that would result in sin, for the express reason that he would become our Redeemer, and we would become his Dwelling Place.

I would say that's a different question.
Did God create sin is different to, Did God want sin, and "set the spark that started the fire (sin)"?.
I hope I am not asking difficult questions. If so, please let me know. I think being specific in such discussions is important.
However, at the same time, I don't want to cause any discomfort.

No. They were not ready for the serpent's trickery and lies. But they were prepared precisely for the result of their encounter. God INTENDED that they disobey, for his own purposes, and that, for our own good. If there had been no fall, there would have been only Eden, not knowledge of Good and Evil, and we would have been only intelligent animals.

This is a clear answer. I appreciate that.
So, you are saying that God wanted Adam and Eve to join Satan in his rebellion, and plunge the whole human race into misery, and suffering, so that he would have to send his son to earth, to suffer and die a torturous death, for our good.
You are saying God intended that. That's what you believe?

You didn't refer to any scriptures for this. Thank God. However, why would God do such a thing, especially since more people will be born? Would God do the same to them, so that there wouldn't have only Eden, and no knowledge of Good and Evil?

How do you attribute goodness to a God who does this, and then in his own words he turns and says to Eve, “What is this that you have done?” - Genesis 3:13
So, do you believe there will never be an Eden, where people do not taste the ill effects of sin which produces misery and death, so that people experience Good and Evil?

Concerning the implication that God is, then, "responsible" for all evil: Again, our thinking is human, and not large enough to see God's position in relation to his creation. There is no need to excuse God from any involvement in the fact of sin, as though it were an accident or morally reprehensible of him or something. We, in our moral 'childhood' consider morality to be a universal matter, and here we are considering questions of his submission to his own rule. SIN is rebellion against God. It is therefore logically vapid to think of God being responsible for sin in that meaning.

So, you don't believe God is responsible for sin; Yet, you think it is what God wanted, and he "set things up" so that there would be sin, on all mankind?
You're not seeking yo confuse me Mark. Are you?

You are right —it IS important. And it seems to me it should not be so difficult to put it into reasonable words. But logic demands it, and Scripture also demonstrates it, that God created and controlled all fact, such that sin did enter the world, and corrupt us. It was no accident. Maybe in ages past, the different point-of-view people had concerning the necessary nature of God, made it easier for them to consider him doing what he did. But for anyone to develop it logically would take a lot more than one post on this forum. Maybe the best concise way I can put it is to say that he is above all this.

I do not see it in scripture. Could you show me where you see it, please?

I wish I could find the way one guy put it. One way to see it, has to do with the fact that we are moral children, and all we want to know is what is right and what is wrong, and to be self-determining about it all. But God has the right of creator, to make us responsible for sin that we were unable to avoid, if he so chooses, and to be just in doing so. That's a hard pill to swallow, but I find it glorifying to him beyond description. He is that much above us.

I get it Mark. I ask questions, but I do pay attention to the answer.
That's why I ask questions.

You're right about that though. Getting people to swallow a pill like that, they do need more than water.
Joking aside, the command at Matthew 22:37 “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’, is not one we carry out perfunctory - like a robot.
So, understanding - getting to know God - is very important. John 17:3
Thus, we want to be sure we are being told the truth about God. Jesus said as much.

Satan is a liar, Jesus said - John 8:44. So he will be certain to paint a very ugly picture of God. One that doesn't represent God at all.
It's understandable, if people are not drawn to a God who does not demonstrate that he is indeed Good.