Catholics please help me understand something

[tulc]

I don't think Mel is even a Roman Catholic anymore, I think he's a member of an off-shoot Catholic church
tulc(just a thought)

 

[INRI2]

This is the other reason I can't decide about catholics being christians. "There is no other name under heaven by which man may be saved." The jew (non-messianic) and the muslim and the pagan will not be saved. God will save according to his will and mercy, and he has told us who he wills to get his mercy, and those do not, according to what he has said in his word. If the catholic church believes otherwise, it cannot claim to be orthodox.

You state this as if you know what your talking about.
As if you knew if this belief was an established part of early Christianity. The Church has always entrusted the souls of the wicked and those who dont believe unto the mercy of god so that they too might share in salvation, this act is more orthodox than you imagine

1 Co 5:5
"hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."

 

[Assisi]

It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can ever be saved apart from Jesus Christ.

Indeed. And the Catholic Church does not say that anyone can be saved apart from Jesus Christ. But the Catholic Church will not say that the Spirit of God cannot work in people who have not heard all the details of the faith. Knowledge and the gifts of grace and faith are two separate things. We do not believe that any persons salvation is dependant on how much they know about Christ, we believe that it is dependant on the grace of God. That grace comes from Christ's work on the Cross...no matter whether we have all the details outlined in the Bible or not.

That is why we believe that nonChristians can be saved through Christ, and that nonCatholics can be saved through Christ. All those who are saved will be united to the Church - Christ's Bride. We believe that the Church is present on earth as the Catholic Church. But we believe that you will not be judged on your knowledge of the Truth we believe the Catholic Church to possess. You will be judged by God - as we all will - according to our acceptance of the gift of grace in our lives.

I believe that someone who has never heard of Christ, but has been given grace by God, can die - and on coming face to face with God at judgement say 'ah, it's you I have been loving and longing for all my life'.

 

[Trento]

Indeed. And the Catholic Church does not say that anyone can be saved apart from Jesus Christ. But the Catholic Church will not say that the Spirit of God cannot work in people who have not heard all the details of the faith. Knowledge and the gifts of grace and faith are two separate things. We do not believe that any persons salvation is dependant on how much they know about Christ, we believe that it is dependant on the grace of God. That grace comes from Christ's work on the Cross...no matter whether we have all the details outlined in the Bible or not.

That is why we believe that nonChristians can be saved through Christ, and that nonCatholics can be saved through Christ. All those who are saved will be united to the Church - Christ's Bride. We believe that the Church is present on earth as the Catholic Church. But we believe that you will not be judged on your knowledge of the Truth we believe the Catholic Church to possess. You will be judged by God - as we all will - according to our acceptance of the gift of grace in our lives.

I believe that someone who has never heard of Christ, but has been given grace by God, can die - and on coming face to face with God at judgement say 'ah, it's you I have been loving and longing for all my life'.

The words of Ezekiel are worth repeating here:

Ezekiel 33:1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, speak to your people and say to them, If I bring the sword upon a land, and the people of the land take a man from among them, and make him their watchman; 3 and if he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the trumpet and warns the people; 4 then if any one who hears the sound of the trumpet does not take warning, and the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, and did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But if he had taken warning, he would have saved his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, so that the people are not warned, and the sword comes, and takes any one of them; that man is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand. 7 "So you, son of man, I have made a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. 8 If I say to the wicked, O wicked man, you shall surely die, and you do not speak to warn the wicked to turn from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 But if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way; he shall die in his iniquity, but you will have saved your life. 10 "And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: `Our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?' 11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, `You shall surely die,' yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live. 17 "Yet your people say, `The way of the Lord is not just'; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, `The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways."
​

 

[Epiphoskei]

But the Catholic Church will not say that the Spirit of God cannot work in people who have not heard all the details of the faith.

'If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"'

Let me rephrase. It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can be saved apart from having faith in Jesus Christ who has been preached to them. That is what scripture says.

 

[INRI2]

Let me rephrase. It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can be saved apart from having faith in Jesus Christ who has been preached to them. That is what scripture says.

Not so.... it is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can have assurance of salvation apart from having faith in Jesus Christ.(Church as part of that faith) The Triune God is not confined to either scripture or the Catholic Church a pagan maybe saved if god so wills it, that is between God and the Pagan, The Church itself is only the vessel through which christ offers the assurance of salvation promised by Christ in the scriptures - there is no assurance of salvation outside of the catholic church, no assurance of salvation outside faith in Christ...however the church does not limit the will, power, mercy and love of god to itself alone nor to itself and the scriptures - God has not made himself our prisoner to be used for our own purposes, neither has he confined himself to the scriptures for god is greater than both church and scriptures and they testify to him rather than he to the scriptures and the church and so god is free from such confines as you place on him to save whom he will - if he does or does not or who he does or does not will to save outside the catholic faith I do not know....no one does!

however through our love for all people a love that comes from God himself the catholic church entrusts the souls of the non believer and those in schism to the mercy of our lord in faith that he will save them and since what we ask for we ask for in faith we are assured that what we ask for shall be given us and so it is that the whole world muslim, Jew, Athiest, protestant and of course catholic are saved by the love of god manifest through the Catholic church, and so it is that all will be saved, yet there is no salvation outside the catholic church and even though you reject the Catholic faith, you are saved

"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"'

 

[Epiphoskei]

This is what the scripture says. No one is saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ, and noone can have that faith apart from hearing about Jesus Christ. I quoted the bible, and you quoted dogma. If the catholic church believes other than the Romans 10 salvation message, it is a heterodox institution.

 

[INRI2]

It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can be saved apart from having faith in Jesus Christ who has been preached to them. That is what scripture says.

That is what scripture says...yes & no

Yes your right, but no its not as simple as that.

and please show me where I Quote anything apart from scripture!

 

[Epiphoskei]

Romans 10 says it. So yet & yes. You can't have no unless romans 10 does not say it, not just because you can make a different interpretation from other verses.

You cannot construe Romans 10 in any way which does not imply salvation only through believing in the Christ who was preached. All who call on the name of the lord will be saved, and there is no other name under heaven by which we can be saved, and we cannot call on him who we have not believed.

 

[INRI2]

Romans 10 says it. So yet & yes. You can't have no unless romans 10 does not say it, not just because you can make a different interpretation from other verses.


If you take Romans 10 in its own context then it is a simple yes, but if you take romans 10 in a biblical context it is a Yes but its also a No its not as simple as that

"it is easier for a man to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven....nothing is impossible with God"

THAT is something we must NEVER FORGET!


"all mankind will see God's salvation."

"'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth."

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? - they can not

And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? - they can not

And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? - they can not

And how can they preach unless they are sent? - they can not

however...nothing is impossible with God, therefore we can not say such people WILL NOT be saved, only that they have NO ASSUARNCE OF SALVATION

 

[Epiphoskei]

Balderdash. No only does it say "all who call on the name of the lord will be saved," but also "there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved." It isn't "Jesus saves, but God might take mercy on those who do not call on his name," It's "Jesus saves, and God has told us he will refuse to save those who do not call on his name." The fact that nothing is impossible with God means God can squeeze the camel through the needle, not that you don't need to go through it to be saved!

Proper use of "Context" additionally, does not include using one verse to modify the meaning of a passage/chapter/book apart from what it means standing on its own. We aren't combining a bunch of contradicting verses to create our doctrines, we are compiling verses which must all be in agreement with each other.

 

[Trento]

Balderdash. No only does it say "all who call on the name of the lord will be saved," but also "there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved." It isn't "Jesus saves, but God might take mercy on those who do not call on his name," It's "Jesus saves, and God has told us he will refuse to save those who do not call on his name." The fact that nothing is impossible with God means God can squeeze the camel through the needle, not that you don't need to go through it to be saved!

Proper use of "Context" additionally, does not include using one verse to modify the meaning of a passage/chapter/book apart from what it means standing on its own. We aren't combining a bunch of contradicting verses to create our doctrines, we are compiling verses which must all be in agreement with each other.

1 Timothy 4:10: "...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially those who believe.".

Paul says especially here for believers which implies others can be saved.

The Catholic Church’s position on this matter is not contradictory. On the one hand, we know that the usual and expected means of salvation is being united with Christ (cf. Rom. 6:1–5), but we also know from the Bible that "the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love" (Ps. 103:8). We hope that those who, through no fault of their own, never know the gospel in a conscious way may be united to Christ in a way known only to God. We believe that God is sovereign and loving. He will judge people according to their knowledge. If they live in a way that accords with their best knowledge of God, we trust that he will be merciful to them.

 

[I.believe]

I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and they were talking about the Pope and what he was saying. They had a catholic priest person that was in some hierarchy of the catholic church and had been for 25 years. His title was very long as to how he is involved (sorry forgot it

In that case, I'd have to conclude that either you're making it up or he has no standing to speak for the their church. Now if you can remember who it is, maybe it would be worth discussing.

 

[Trento]

'If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"'

Let me rephrase. It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can be saved apart from having faith in Jesus Christ who has been preached to them. That is what scripture says.

Let us look at King David, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. They never knew Christ. They never asked Jesus to be their personal Saviour.

St. Paul then goes on walk us through the entire Old Testament. He speaks about​

Noah... Abraham... Isaac...Jacob... Rehab the prostitute... Moses, Sarah... Gideon... Barak... Samson...Jephthah...David...Samuel and the prophets who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, obtained, promised, shut the mouths of lions (Heb 11:7-12:1)​

None of them knew Christ, none of them were "born again." Yet Paul does not at all suggest they are in hell. In speaking about them, he says "we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses." This does not sound like hell.
Christ made it clear that Moses and Elijah are doing fine and are not in hell. (Mat 17:2) and that Abraham is doing fine also. (Lk 16:22) None of these guys made a personal decision for Christ. Obviously, these faithful souls pleased God. We Catholics think it was their honest search for truth and faith in God that saved them.​

 

[Epiphoskei]

Abraham was justified by faith in Christ. He "accepted christ after a type." All old testament saints were justified by faith in the coming of a savior, who happenes to be Jesus Christ. They all died in Jesus Christ. They will all rise in Jesus Christ.

If your verses mean what you say they mean, then peter and paul contradicted them when they preached the exclucivity of salvation through faith in Christ. You have been unable to establish a reasonable interpretation of Acts 4 and Romans 10 on their own, within literary context only. The right interpretation is patant and obvious. Thus, those apparently contradictory verses cannot mean what you say they mean.

 

[SpiritDriven]

Balderdash. No only does it say "all who call on the name of the lord will be saved," but also "there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved." It isn't "Jesus saves, but God might take mercy on those who do not call on his name," It's "Jesus saves, and God has told us he will refuse to save those who do not call on his name." The fact that nothing is impossible with God means God can squeeze the camel through the needle, not that you don't need to go through it to be saved!

Proper use of "Context" additionally, does not include using one verse to modify the meaning of a passage/chapter/book apart from what it means standing on its own. We aren't combining a bunch of contradicting verses to create our doctrines, we are compiling verses which must all be in agreement with each other.

Chapter 2
1 If, then, there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any communion of spirit, if any compassion and pity,
2 fill my joy full, that you may be mutually disposed, having mutual love, joined in soul, being disposed to one thing --
3 nothing according with faction, nor yet according with vainglory -- but with humility, deeming one another superior to one's self,
4 not each noting that which is his own, but each that of others also.
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father.

 

[Albion]

I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and they were talking about the Pope and what he was saying. They had a catholic priest person that was in some hierarchy of the catholic church and had been for 25 years. His title was very long as to how he is involved (sorry forgot it), anyway, he was saying that he has worked for 25 years in seeing unity with other christians outside the catholic church and said that the pope was reitterating an internal memo of what they believe as truth has been revealed to them. He said I hope to God that Baptist churches believe that the truth as it was revealed to them is without waivering and we don't say that other sects (baptists, penecostal, ect. ect..) are not saved or don't go to heaven, but we are saying we feel we have the fullest revelation of christ as it was revealed. He said he works to unite and find common grounds with other christian denominations to promote unity in the community ect..

I am having a hard time understanding as some catholics will insist (Mel Gibson for one) that non catholics won't go to heaven. If you saw the interview, he said he thinks his wife is a better saint then him and more deserving of heaven and would hate to think of her not being there ect..ect.., but said the Church says that the only way is through the Church (catholic) I guess she isn't catholic. He said finally, I stand beside the church.

While other catholics say that other denominations accept truth as it has been presented, but try to find a common ground with other denominations regarding Jesus/blood, salvation and other things will and can differ.

The guy on the radio took a call and was told that he believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven, not and institution and he would take his chances..the catholic priest kindof chuckled, but said, we don't say you don't have a chance, we never say or believe that we are the only way.

So which is it? Is there indeed an actual acceptance across the board or is this by whomevers interpretation?

I think there's a fairly clearcut answer to your question. All claims about a "one true" denomination are about a different matter and so are extraneous to the issue.

What you are asking is whether salvation requires membership in one particular church organization, at least as members of that particular church see it. It is entirely consistent and logical to say that church X is the only true one without also saying that outside of it salvation is impossible.

The previous pope expressed the opinion that even pagans who had never heard the Gospel could be saved. This pope of the present has expressed the opinion that you are referring to which seems to go to the other extreme.

Neither of these position statements establishes any official position for the Roman Catholic church. They are merely the ideas that those popes chose to bring to the faithful and to the world at this time.

As a matter of interest, opinion polls taken of Catholics themselves showed only 9% (as of a couple of years ago) who agreed that salvation required belief in Jesus Christ, let alone membership in their church. That was a far lower percentage than for any other major Christian denomination.

 

[IamAdopted]

1 Timothy 4:10: "...we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially those who believe.".

Paul says especially here for believers which implies others can be saved.

The Catholic Church’s position on this matter is not contradictory. On the one hand, we know that the usual and expected means of salvation is being united with Christ (cf. Rom. 6:1–5), but we also know from the Bible that "the Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love" (Ps. 103:8). We hope that those who, through no fault of their own, never know the gospel in a conscious way may be united to Christ in a way known only to God. We believe that God is sovereign and loving. He will judge people according to their knowledge. If they live in a way that accords with their best knowledge of God, we trust that he will be merciful to them.

There is only one way to the father. That is Christ. If one does not believe in Christ there is no way to the Father.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

 

[WarriorAngel]

Only one holds the fulness of truth and that Is Christ. NO "church" can say they have the fulness of truth. For the truth that we need for salvation and sanctification is in the written scriptures and not in tradtion.

We have read History that is why we can say what we say.

Indeed, and in the same spirit you have gained nothing through it.
That tells me something.

You read without asking for the Lord to provide the answers for you...and perhaps you read based on what you already decided was true.

That's not being open to the fullness of truth, that is being open to what you already decided was true.

Had you really read the history you would see an unbroken chain of men all being ordained [laying of hands] to do the ministry of the CHURCH Christ spoke of to Peter, the Apostles and in Revelation.

The CHURCH is scriptural.

Exactly.

Being an apostle is a spiritual gift given by God. Having a sucession does not mean having an apostolic sucession. Given that some of the people in these sucessions recieved their position by simony, since Peter said you cannot buy the Holy Spirit, it must be the case that the medieval popes who bought the office were not apostles and apostolic sucession, if it ever existed, ceased.

It certainly does if the Apostles were the ones laying hands they choose to lay hands on to do the ministry.

Pulling apart the truth to suit modern day versions will not change the truth.
Never.

Yes, ad hominims are wonderful defenses against accusations of heterodoxy. How thoughtless of me...

"There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved."

Hederodox, heresy, apostate...those are ALL terms the Church made.

Interesting how ppl borrow yet MORE Tradition from her.

 

[Trento]

There is only one way to the father. That is Christ. If one does not believe in Christ there is no way to the Father.

When Christ was being beaten to a pulp by those Roman Pagan Guards and He asked te Father to forgive them because they were ignorent of what they were doing. Do you think the Father heard Him?