Catholics please help me understand something

[IamAdopted]

Indeed, and in the same spirit you have gained nothing through it.
That tells me something.

You read without asking for the Lord to provide the answers for you...and perhaps you read based on what you already decided was true.

That's not being open to the fullness of truth, that is being open to what you already decided was true.

Had you really read the history you would see an unbroken chain of men all being ordained [laying of hands] to do the ministry of the CHURCH Christ spoke of to Peter, the Apostles and in Revelation.

The CHURCH is scriptural.





It certainly does if the Apostles were the ones laying hands they choose to lay hands on to do the ministry.

Pulling apart the truth to suit modern day versions will not change the truth.
Never.


Hederodox, heresy, apostate...those are ALL terms the Church made.

Interesting how ppl borrow yet MORE Tradition from her.

History has alot to say WA. But that is what it is History. God is here in the presence with us His people. For He is the same today yesterday and forever. What was written in scripture is for today just as it was back when it was written. I can read the History of the first Church in scripture. I can also read in history how these scripture have been twisted to conform to part truth and part error. Mixing Pagan religion with Christianity and calling it truth. I have read History. This is why I get truth from the scripture as Jesus said was truth. I never have read in the scripture that tradtion is truth.

 

[IamAdopted]

When Christ was being beaten to a pulp by those Roman Pagan Guards and He asked te Father to forgive them because they were ignorent of what they were doing. Do you think the Father heard Him?

I am sure that HE Did for He always hears the prayer of His only begotten son. But that does not make them saved. That doesn't make them born again..

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Only one holds the fulness of truth and that Is Christ. NO "church" can say they have the fulness of truth. For the truth that we need for salvation and sanctification is in the written scriptures and not in tradtion.

We believe that Christ is the Head, the Heart and the Spirit of the Church. The truth comes from Him through the Holy Spirit.
This is nothing new as has been said.

This is how it was explained once to me.
The Catholic Church is like a treasure chest full to the top with jewels of all sorts.
Other Churches have many many jewels, too but the full treasure chest remains in the Church of Jesus and the Apostles.

Like I said, that image was given to me by someone and it seemed like a good one. It explained much when I was not a Catholic.

 

[IamAdopted]

We believe that Christ is the Head, the Heart and the Spirit of the Church. The truth comes from Him through the Holy Spirit.
This is nothing new as has been said.

This is how it was explained once to me.
The Catholic Church is like a treasure chest full to the top with jewels of all sorts.
Other Churches have many many jewels, too but the full treasure chest remains in the Church of Jesus and the Apostles.

Like I said, that image was given to me by someone and it seemed like a good one. It explained much when I was not a Catholic.

A Church has the foundation already Layed. This foundation is Christ and no other. We cannot build a church and call it the only true church on History and church fathers. For this is the wrong foundation. It is built on sand. Christ is the rock.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

A Church has the foundation already Layed. This foundation is Christ and no other. We cannot build a church and call it the only true church on History and church fathers. For this is the wrong foundation. It is built on sand. Christ is the rock.

The OP asked, "Please explain" and I was trying to explain.

Jesus is indeed the foundation and the cornerstone of the Apostolic Church. No doubt about that. You are right and we cannot build a Church and call it anything. That, too, is quite correct. The history and the Church Fathers came out of that very church not the other way around.

The history didn't invent the Church nor did the Church Fathers. Jesus gave the Church, the Apostles were given the authority. The history and the Church Fathers came after that.

 

[IamAdopted]

The OP asked, "Please explain" and I was trying to explain.

Jesus is indeed the foundation and the cornerstone of the Apostolic Church. No doubt about that. You are right and we cannot build a Church and call it anything. That, too, is quite correct. The history and the Church Fathers came out of that very church not the other way around.

The history didn't invent the Church nor did the Church Fathers. Jesus gave the Church, the Apostles were given the authority. The history and the Church Fathers came after that.

All authority in Heaven and on earth Belongs to only one and that is Our King and coming Lord Christ Jesus. For the only authority that man has is to agree with Gods written word the truth. No man can obsolve sin. Only God can. No man can cleanse a mans heart from Sin. Only God can. Now if someone comes to Christ and commits there life to Him under Gods written word and authority we can tell them you have been forgiven and translated into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son for we have to go on the Authority of Gods written word.

 

[Trento]

A Church has the foundation already Layed. This foundation is Christ and no other. We cannot build a church and call it the only true church on History and church fathers. For this is the wrong foundation. It is built on sand. Christ is the rock.

Let's eliminate the complete testimony of the Fathers from history - go ahead now - find your canon. Nothing we know about Jesus comes to us that has not gone through their hands - there is absolutely no way around this. To sit around and deny the foundation of the Church that thousands of these men helped built and were martyerd for because you want to believe a different gospel is

Next to the Holy Scriptures, which are themselves a history and depository of divine revelation, there is no stronger proof of the continual presence of Christ with his people, no more thorough vindication of Christianity, no richer source of spiritual wisdom and experience, no deeper incentive to virtue and piety, than the history of Christ's kingdom. Every age has a message from God to man, which is of the greatest importance for man to understand.”
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The early Church fathers steered this young church through turbulent cultural and mythological currents of the world around them. Their writings provided guidance and assurance to early Christians whose faith was not only doctrinally challenged, since copies of Scripture were rare and costly, but who often suffered persecution and even martyrdom. Contemporary believers will find in these records a fascinating glimpse of the first centuries following the death and resurrection of Christ, and will be given rich insight into the growth and history of the Christian Church.[/FONT]
They represent primary evidences of the Canon and the credibility of the New Testament. Written before the Canon was established, the works of the Ante-Nicene Fathers offers itself as a means to defend the Christian faith, to record the martyrdom of the early Christian church body, and to stand as monuments to the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[IamAdopted]

Let's eliminate the complete testimony of the Fathers from history - go ahead now - find your canon. Nothing we know about Jesus comes to us that has not gone through their hands - there is absolutely no way around this. To sit around and deny the foundation of the Church that thousands of these men helped built and were martyerd for because you want to believe a different gospel is

The scriptures were already settled in heaven and on earth. Way before the cannon existed was Gods word settled..

 

[Peaceful Dove]

All authority in Heaven and on earth Belongs to only one and that is Our King and coming Lord Christ Jesus. For the only authority that man has is to agree with Gods written word the truth. No man can obsolve sin. Only God can. No man can cleanse a mans heart from Sin. Only God can. Now if someone comes to Christ and commits there life to Him under Gods written word and authority we can tell them you have been forgiven and translated into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son for we have to go on the Authority of Gods written word.

IamAdopted, I love you dearly, sister but I cannot agree with this. It would mean to me that Jesus lied.


He told us in the Bible to obey the authority he placed over us. He told the Apostles to "receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you hold bound are held bound". He said many other things in scripture that has been brought to your attention in these forums that you choose to interpret away.

I do not understand your reason for doing this. Jesus only told the truth and he said it very plainly.

 

[IamAdopted]

IamAdopted, I love you dearly, sister but I cannot agree with this. It would mean to me that Jesus lied.


He told us in the Bible to obey the authority he placed over us. He told the Apostles to "receive the Holy Spirit, whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you hold bound are held bound". He said many other things in scripture that has been brought to your attention in these forums that you choose to interpret away.

I do not understand your reason for doing this. Jesus only told the truth and he said it very plainly.

Read it as it is written. Whatever sins you forgive have already been forgiven is how it reads..It is according to Gods word that we have any authority. For Gods word is truth. It has been tested and tried. It is the standard for What God has chose to reveal Himself to us. We only have such a dim view of our Great and mighty God. He is all powerful and mighty. Man is so feeble and like the grass. Here one day and gone the other..

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Read it as it is written. Whatever sins you forgive have already been forgiven is how it reads..It is according to Gods word that we have any authority. For Gods word is truth. It has been tested and tried. It is the standard for What God has chose to reveal Himself to us. We only have such a dim view of our Great and mighty God. He is all powerful and mighty. Man is so feeble and like the grass. Here one day and gone the other..

What translation are you reading?

 

[Albion]

Read it as it is written. Whatever sins you forgive have already been forgiven is how it reads.

Interesting point. I took a look at one of those books that lists every Bible verse dealing with any particular topic, and it appears that you have a strong case. Either the sins are described as forgiven already or that the person can claim the forgiveness if they do something or other. Not that anyone can establish a remission of sins with regard to another person on his own, unless we are speaking of "forgive one another" that is universally recognized as not being about salvation but about our attitude towards our neighbor. The toughest part about the verse that has Christ saying "whose sins you shall forgive," etc. is that it it followed with the part about those sins that are retained. This seems to suggest a priestly power delegated to someone, but it's hard to say to whom and under what circumstances. It is very hard to believe that Jesus took away the sins of the world on the Cross but if some priest were to decide not to absolve a truly penitent believer, that God would refuse to forgive him as though his hands were tied by his minister.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

Interesting point. I took a look at one of those books that lists every Bible verse dealing with any particular topic, and it appears that you have a strong case. Either the sins are described as forgiven already or that the person can claim the forgiveness if they do something or other. Not that anyone can establish a remission of sins with regard to another person on his own, unless we are speaking of "forgive one another" that is universally recognized as not being about salvation but about our attitude towards our neighbor. The toughest part about the verse that has Christ saying "whose sins you shall forgive," etc. is that it it followed with the part about those sins that are retained. This seems to suggest a priestly power delegated to someone, but it's hard to say to whom and under what circumstances. It is very hard to believe that Jesus took away the sins of the world on the Cross but if some priest were to decide not to absolve a truly penitent believer, that God would refuse to forgive him as though his hands were tied by his minister.

Good points but a Priest would not refuse to absolve a truly repentent believer. That is a given in the Catholic Church. You must understand that a Priest is under extremely solid laws regarding administering Sacraments.
They take vows of obedience that binds them to these laws.

Do you know if a Priest reveals a confession of a person that Priest is automatically excommunicated. I was surprised myself when I was told that by a Priest.

 

[Albion]

Good points but a Priest would not refuse to absolve a truly repentent believer.

That is the theory. But priests are human and must make judgments. You agree with me, I take it, that a priest can withhold absolution.

My point is that God cannot be overridden on forgiveness if a priest makes a mistake in judging the sincerity of the penitent.

Do you know if a Priest reveals a confession of a person that Priest is automatically excommunicated. I was surprised myself when I was told that by a Priest.

Yes, I know, but it doesn't have anything to do with the point we were discussing.

 

[Carey]

For your answer SEE the thread titled

A catholic is a gall bladder.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Not a priest nor any other pastor would know if a person's salvation is true. Just as the Roman Catholic treated Martin Luther with ex-communicate. We must openly discuss with all who will listen, treating all Christians as fellow Christians. Regarding spiritual salvation, Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his, " and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

Only God knows who are His.