Catholics please help me understand something

[Flames]

I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and they were talking about the Pope and what he was saying. They had a catholic priest person that was in some hierarchy of the catholic church and had been for 25 years. His title was very long as to how he is involved (sorry forgot it), anyway, he was saying that he has worked for 25 years in seeing unity with other christians outside the catholic church and said that the pope was reitterating an internal memo of what they believe as truth has been revealed to them. He said I hope to God that Baptist churches believe that the truth as it was revealed to them is without waivering and we don't say that other sects (baptists, penecostal, ect. ect..) are not saved or don't go to heaven, but we are saying we feel we have the fullest revelation of christ as it was revealed. He said he works to unite and find common grounds with other christian denominations to promote unity in the community ect..

I am having a hard time understanding as some catholics will insist (Mel Gibson for one) that non catholics won't go to heaven. If you saw the interview, he said he thinks his wife is a better saint then him and more deserving of heaven and would hate to think of her not being there ect..ect.., but said the Church says that the only way is through the Church (catholic) I guess she isn't catholic. He said finally, I stand beside the church.

While other catholics say that other denominations accept truth as it has been presented, but try to find a common ground with other denominations regarding Jesus/blood, salvation and other things will and can differ.

The guy on the radio took a call and was told that he believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven, not and institution and he would take his chances..the catholic priest kindof chuckled, but said, we don't say you don't have a chance, we never say or believe that we are the only way.

So which is it? Is there indeed an actual acceptance across the board or is this by whomevers interpretation?

 

[Zaac]

I am having a hard time understanding as some catholics will insist (Mel Gibson for one) that non catholics won't go to heaven. If you saw the interview, he said he thinks his wife is a better saint then him and more deserving of heaven and would hate to think of her not being there ect..ect.., but said the Church says that the only way is through the Church (catholic) I guess she isn't catholic. He said finally, I stand beside the church.

Mel gets no say so. By what measure can he say that she is a better saint other than by her works? That simply is not the method by which folks are saved. None are worthy of heaven. But by the grace of God to send His only Begotten Son to die on the Cross and to rise from the grave on the Third day, whereby He made it possible for us to go through His PERFECTION, can we enter heaven.

Anyone who tells you that an institution is the way is a false teacher.

 

[Flames]

Here is the link to the Mel story http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4224452

 

[Epiphoskei]

This is why I have trouble understanding this whole "our church is the sourch of truth" business. No one agrees on what the "truth" is to begin with.

Sometimes I just want to go see the pope and say "Write down everything your church believes and excommunicate everyone who doesn't believe it" so I can decide if catholics are christians or not.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Church has said other churches have saving graces and help save others.

But all measures of truth have been entrusted to her since the beginning.

And she has full salvivic means, whereas Protestants have partial truth.

Its nothing new...just reiterated once again.

That is not to say that other church goers are doomed...but that the Catholic Church holds and always held the fulness of truth.

 

[WarriorAngel]

This is why I have trouble understanding this whole "our church is the sourch of truth" business. No one agrees on what the "truth" is to begin with.

Sometimes I just want to go see the pope and say "Write down everything your church believes and excommunicate everyone who doesn't believe it" so I can decide if catholics are christians or not.

AS long as I have posted in this area...I have repeatedly said; read history.

YOU will find an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession...and one Church always.

Modern times do not know the history for if they did, they would be Catholic too. IMHO.

 

[IamAdopted]

The Church has said other churches have saving graces and help save others.

But all measures of truth have been entrusted to her since the beginning.

And she has full salvivic means, whereas Protestants have partial truth.

Its nothing new...just reiterated once again.

That is not to say that other church goers are doomed...but that the Catholic Church holds and always held the fulness of truth.

Only one holds the fulness of truth and that Is Christ. NO "church" can say they have the fulness of truth. For the truth that we need for salvation and sanctification is in the written scriptures and not in tradtion.

 

[IamAdopted]

AS long as I have posted in this area...I have repeatedly said; read history.

YOU will find an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession...and one Church always.

Modern times do not know the history for if they did, they would be Catholic too. IMHO.

We have read History that is why we can say what we say.

 

[Zaac]

AS long as I have posted in this area...I have repeatedly said; read history.

YOU will find an unbroken chain of Apostolic succession...and one Church always.

Modern times do not know the history for if they did, they would be Catholic too. IMHO.

What does a denomination have to do with God's Church? The Church is the Body of Christ. It is NOT specific to a denomination.

If man is to rest his salvation on the things taught by the RCC instead of God's Holy Word, then everyman would eternally be in hell.

 

[tadoflamb]

Hello flames,

So far you have three responses from non-Catholics to a question posed to Catholics.

I'd love to discuss this with you, but it would probably be best done in a Catholic forum where you can get Catholic responses.

There's already a few threads started around here which deal with the same subject at length.

Peace be with you,


Tad

 

[Epiphoskei]

We have read History that is why we can say what we say.

Exactly.

Being an apostle is a spiritual gift given by God. Having a sucession does not mean having an apostolic sucession. Given that some of the people in these sucessions recieved their position by simony, since Peter said you cannot buy the Holy Spirit, it must be the case that the medieval popes who bought the office were not apostles and apostolic sucession, if it ever existed, ceased.

 

[INRI2]

This is why I have trouble understanding this whole "our church is the sourch of truth" business. No one agrees on what the "truth" is to begin with.

I Disagree all Christians agree on what the truth is. The truth is Jesus Christ, the son of the living God. One God from one God, True God from True God.

The Catholic faith is the fullness of truth simply becase she is the one through whom Christ chose to reveal himself to the world, Just as Jesus was the one chosen by God to reveal himself to the world. As no one has seen the father except the one who sees the son, no one has seen the son except the one who sees the church.

The witness of the Church brought christ to the many shores of this world and revealed him to both Jew and Gentile, slave and free both the righteous and the wicked.

although other churches are not devoid of truth for they have seen the Church and the son and the father through the son and they worship him, they are somewhat removed from the truth, in that they are somewhat removed from the church and thus from the son and with that somewhat removed from the father.

No one accepts the father who does not accept the son and no one accepts the son who does not accept the church for just as christ had his being and movment in God so the church has her movement and being in Christ.

As the father sent the son the son sent the church, as the father is greater than the son, the son is greater than the church as salvation is from God through his son so too assurance of salvation is through the church. however salvation ultimatly comes from God and he extends his salvation to whom he pleases if he wills to the Jew and the muslim and even to the pagan if he so desires and so then his son also extends his salvation to believer and non believer alike and in this knowledge the church delivers the non believer and those in schism unto the mercy of almighty God so that they to might be saved.

 

[Trento]

I was listening to the radio on the way home from work yesterday and they were talking about the Pope and what he was saying. They had a catholic priest person that was in some hierarchy of the catholic church and had been for 25 years. His title was very long as to how he is involved (sorry forgot it), anyway, he was saying that he has worked for 25 years in seeing unity with other christians outside the catholic church and said that the pope was reitterating an internal memo of what they believe as truth has been revealed to them. He said I hope to God that Baptist churches believe that the truth as it was revealed to them is without waivering and we don't say that other sects (baptists, penecostal, ect. ect..) are not saved or don't go to heaven, but we are saying we feel we have the fullest revelation of christ as it was revealed. He said he works to unite and find common grounds with other christian denominations to promote unity in the community ect..

I am having a hard time understanding as some catholics will insist (Mel Gibson for one) that non catholics won't go to heaven. If you saw the interview, he said he thinks his wife is a better saint then him and more deserving of heaven and would hate to think of her not being there ect..ect.., but said the Church says that the only way is through the Church (catholic) I guess she isn't catholic. He said finally, I stand beside the church.

While other catholics say that other denominations accept truth as it has been presented, but try to find a common ground with other denominations regarding Jesus/blood, salvation and other things will and can differ.

The guy on the radio took a call and was told that he believed that Jesus was the only way to heaven, not and institution and he would take his chances..the catholic priest kindof chuckled, but said, we don't say you don't have a chance, we never say or believe that we are the only way.

So which is it? Is there indeed an actual acceptance across the board or is this by whomevers interpretation?

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Who belongs to the Catholic Church? 836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."

 

[Epiphoskei]

He extends his salvation to whom he pleases if he wills to the Jew and the muslim and even to the pagan if he so desires and so then his son also extends his salvation to believer and non believer alike and in this knowledge the church delivers the non believer and those in schism unto the mercy of almighty God so that they to might be saved.

This is the other reason I can't decide about catholics being christians. "There is no other name under heaven by which man may be saved." The jew (non-messianic) and the muslim and the pagan will not be saved. God will save according to his will and mercy, and he has told us who he wills to get his mercy, and those do not, according to what he has said in his word. If the catholic church believes otherwise, it cannot claim to be orthodox.

 

[tadoflamb]

This is the other reason I can't decide about catholics being christians.

Pharisee and hypocrite!

 

[Trento]

What does a denomination have to do with God's Church? The Church is the Body of Christ. It is NOT specific to a denomination.

If man is to rest his salvation on the things taught by the RCC instead of God's Holy Word, then everyman would eternally be in hell.

Man has rested his salvation on what is written in scripture alone and we have a chaotic Christianity with No one comeing to the same conclusion when they use scripture without Apostolic Tradition. A cursory look at SDA, JW, Baptists, Lutherans,Quakers, Evangelicals, Episcopalians, Christedelphians, Plymoth Brethen, Methodists, Pentecostals, A.O.G. Revival Centres, and all those that come and go etc; for the next few thousand hodgepodge of beliefs - all claiming to strictly adhere to what "Scripture Preaches" renders it all of little credibility - and a rejection of God's Word.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Pharisee and hypocrite!

Yes, ad hominims are wonderful defenses against accusations of heterodoxy. How thoughtless of me...

"There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved."

 

[Trento]

This is the other reason I can't decide about catholics being christians. "There is no other name under heaven by which man may be saved." The jew (non-messianic) and the muslim and the pagan will not be saved. God will save according to his will and mercy, and he has told us who he wills to get his mercy, and those do not, according to what he has said in his word. If the catholic church believes otherwise, it cannot claim to be orthodox.

Jesus himself went out of his way to say that Samaritans could
be good, Publicans could be justified and that a Roman centurion could have more faith than any other man in Israel.

Then there are the words of St. Peter at the house of Cornelius that for some reason no one wants to remember:

Acts 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."​

Christians of ALL denominations have constructed vast theologies to justify our vilification of the "outsider" and to make it appear that God only favors us and the people who think as we do. In reality, Christ came not to save the righteous, but sinners. By definition, that means all men. When there was dissension among his disciples about the extent of the franchise of the Gospel this is what Jesus said:

Mark 9: 38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. 42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. ​

The NT makes this clear elsewhere as well:

1 Timothy 2: 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. ​

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds​

If the good Samaritan could be held up to us by Christ as an example for right conduct, he must have been "saved" even though he was a Samaritan, not either a Jew or a Christian. ​

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; interestingly, in these two chapter of Romans St. Paul summarizes Wisdom 13-19) ​

The ``law unto themselves'' is man's participation in God's eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men's hearts, though it can be clouded by sin. ​

 

[Zaac]

This is the other reason I can't decide about catholics being christians. "There is no other name under heaven by which man may be saved." The jew (non-messianic) and the muslim and the pagan will not be saved. God will save according to his will and mercy, and he has told us who he wills to get his mercy, and those do not, according to what he has said in his word. If the catholic church believes otherwise, it cannot claim to be orthodox.

Very well said. But for sure it can claim such a thing. Just remember that God's Word says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Matthew 7:21-23

 

[Epiphoskei]

Jesus himself went out of his way to say that Samaritans could
be good, Publicans could be justified and that a Roman centurion could have more faith than any other man in Israel.

Yes. And publicans, samaritans, and Romans all called on the name of Christ and were saved. This does not prove salvation apart from the only name under heaven by which we can be saved.

Then there are the words of St. Peter at the house of Cornelius that for some reason no one wants to remember:

Acts 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."​

And immedatly Cornelius and his family became Christians. Saved by the only name by which we can be saved.

Christians of ALL denominations have constructed vast theologies to justify our vilification of the "outsider" and to make it appear that God only favors us and the people who think as we do. In reality, Christ came not to save the righteous, but sinners. By definition, that means all men. When there was dissension among his disciples about the extent of the franchise of the Gospel this is what Jesus said:

Mark 9: 38 John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." 39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. 40 For he that is not against us is for us. 41 For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. 42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung round his neck and he were thrown into the sea. ​

You have no point here. These people are acting in the name of Christ. People who do that are called Christians.

The NT makes this clear elsewhere as well:

1 Timothy 2: 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. ​

And many are saved, when they come to a knowledge of the truth: Jesus Christ!

​

Titus 2: 11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds​

If the good Samaritan could be held up to us by Christ as an example for right conduct, he must have been "saved" even though he was a Samaritan, not either a Jew or a Christian. ​

The good samaritan was a parable... not a person. It is inappropriate interpretational principle to derive a point from a parable that Jesus didn't derive himself.​

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:1-16; interestingly, in these two chapter of Romans St. Paul summarizes Wisdom 13-19) ​

The ``law unto themselves'' is man's participation in God's eternal law, sometimes known as the natural law. Significantly, St. Paul has not mentioned faith in Christ as a condition for knowledge of this natural law: it is a law knowable by all men without respect to creed. As St. Paul says, it is written on men's hearts, though it can be clouded by sin. ​

And no one has ever kept the law, therefore knowledge of the natural law cannot save.

It is heterodoxy to believe that anyone can ever be saved apart from Jesus Christ.