CATHOLICS ONLY: Abortion...

[epiclesis]

religious tolerance site really isnt the best site to learn catholic beliefs.

 

[Deb7777]

Folks, the sources you are looking for are had if you simply google the specific Pope and Church Father I listed. Their writings can be confirmed. An honest study into Church history will reveal that although the Church ALWAYS regarded abortion as sin, when the soul presented itself was always unclear, and abortions were allowed in very early stages.

This is where I found the claims to the church's early stance on abortion.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

This is NOT to say that the Church tought acceptance of abortion, because the Didache is very clear in that. My question pertained to weather or not an infallible decree today, (which I can find no evidence of) would automatically excommunicate those whom in the past were a bit lenient regarding abortion.

The Church never allowed abortion its always been consider evil. The early church was very strict, 10 year penance for those who had an abortion, the middle ages from what I gathered lessen the penance to under a year for those who had an abortion in the 1st couple of weeks because of the debate when the soul enter but abortion has never been permitted, the penance varied in the different centuries. As time went on we believe the soul enters at the moment of conception, though some stiill debate the issue today. So to say the church allowed abortion in the early stages is incorrect.

 

[King of the Nations]

This is where I found the claims to the church's early stance on abortion.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

You need to provide a link for everything you cut and paste like that or you run into copyright issues and typically have your post deleted by the mods. Just a quick FYI.

This is NOT to say that the Church tought acceptance of abortion, because the Didache is very clear in that. My question pertained to weather or not an infallible decree today, (which I can find no evidence of) would automatically excommunicate those whom in the past were a bit lenient regarding abortion.

No. It wouldn't.

Greg

 

[ZooMom]

Is it possible to excommunicate people who have already died? What? Does St. Peter page them to the service desk and tell them there's been a mistake?



Sorry, Raist! Not making fun of you...the idea just tickled me.

 

[Called2Grace]

To those who asked about my ectopic pregnancies...in both cases the tube ruptured and surgery was required to remove the damaged tissue. A ruptured fallopian tube is not instantly fatal. The first time this happened was about 8 or 9 years ago, right after I had had Mallory. I was hemorraging badly that time because I had waited over the weekend with abdominal pains before going to the doctor Monday morning...I had no idea that I could be or was pregnant. I thought I had an intestinal virus or something. But still, after waiting approximately three days after the rupture occured, I still only lost just over a pint of blood. This last time, they caught it earlier, but still after the rupture.

There is no way to move a baby once it has implanted. It will not reimplant. Ever. So the only options in a fallopian ectopic are to either abort and kill the fetus and possibly save the tube (though this is not guaranteed), or allow it to rupture (at which point the fetus dies instantly) and remove the damaged tube.

The thing is, though, that very VERY few ectopics are caught early enough for this to even be an issue. Most are not discovered until after rupture. So I'd be willing to bet that every death attributable to an ectopic pregnancy resulted from the woman not knowing what had happened and not seeking medical attention. There is some pain, but at least for me, it wasn't unbearable and not the type of distress that would send most women running to the doctor.

But...if I had had the choice, if they had caught the pregnancy before it ruptured, I still would not have aborted. I couldn't make myself do that. Either way...one has to go through surgery, so you wouldn't be 'sparing' yourself anything to abort. the only way I see a problem with letting the rupture occur naturally is if the woman is an hemophiliac (free bleeder). So what are the odds that an hemophiliac woman will have an ectopic pregnancy and they find out before the rupture...pretty slim.

I have wondered for a long time where this panic over ectopic pregnancies has come from. And I think I have figured it out. It comes from pro-abortionists who want a distraction to wave under the prolife nose...to sidetrack from the real issue. It's part of all the 'well what abouts' that they come up with to try to justify abortion.Well what about rape...well what about incest...well what about... See, they tell people 'Well what about in cases of ectopic pregnancy? The mother will DIE if she doesn't abort!' And people are frightened by that and start scrambling to try to find a 'loophole' in morality, since of course we don't want women DYING because they WON"T have an abortion. It's very effective. But it isn't true. Abortion is always...no matter what...wrong.


Peace be with you.

Sandy

Thank you for sharing your experience. It reaffirms what I feel in myself that taking another life, regardless of the reason is wrong. I have always felt that it is not my place to decide who gets to live or die, We had a discussion at work yesterday about abortion, someone we knew has recently had a baby with disabilities, and there was a lot of "how hard would it be for the mother, how much pain would the baby be in, what about the other children what if this happened, what if that happened..."
And I just kept thinking, what right do we have to determine that this baby shouldn't experience life??

I feel more strongly about it now than I ever have. Thankyou for leading me closer to the truth!

 

[Poohbear246]

Thank you for sharing your experience. It reaffirms what I feel in myself that taking another life, regardless of the reason is wrong. I have always felt that it is not my place to decide who gets to live or die, We had a discussion at work yesterday about abortion, someone we knew has recently had a baby with disabilities, and there was a lot of "how hard would it be for the mother, how much pain would the baby be in, what about the other children what if this happened, what if that happened..."
And I just kept thinking, what right do we have to determine that this baby shouldn't experience life??

I feel more strongly about it now than I ever have. Thankyou for leading me closer to the truth!

Exactly. I am disabled -- it makes me feel nauseous upon hearing that people think that a disabled fetus *should* be aborted because he or she would too hard to deal with. (And I say the following with an elaborate eye roll --) Gee, glad to hear that we're valued members of society you know??

Hi everyone -- I've been away from OBOB for several months due to the insanity of school. Thought I'd jump right back in, if no one objects.

 

[ZooMom]

Thanks, Susansmum. God bless you.


Pooh. It's good to see you back. Jump away.

 

[Poohbear246]

Hi Sandy!! Thanks so much.

 

[Called2Grace]

Exactly. I am disabled -- it makes me feel nauseous upon hearing that people think that a disabled fetus *should* be aborted because he or she would too hard to deal with. (And I say the following with an elaborate eye roll --) Gee, glad to hear that we're valued members of society you know??

Exactly!! That what I have been thinking! What does it matter if a person has a disability! We are all created by God! Isn't that the point?

Then I have my husband saying, "but what if the baby that is born is in so much pain yada yada yada...." I;m sure we've all heard that before...

I have a mental illness which can be hard to deal with at times, but I'm glad that I am here and can experience God.

And I also think that we don't know what can happen, even if we have a baby that doesn't have a disability etc, who's to say that something won't happen to change that? Should we then abort all babies because of the possibility that something may happen in the future? Life can be hard and there are painful experiences, so what? It still doesn't give me the right to decide if someone should live or die. Even if I want to "protect" them. I think it is more "I want to protect myself"

Anyway I'll get off my soap box now

 

[Poohbear246]

Then I have my husband saying, "but what if the baby that is born is in so much pain yada ya.." I;m sure we've all heard that before...

Yep, as you said, yadda yadda yadda. You don't know what is transpiring between the baby's soul and God through the pain. Maybe babies have a closer relationship with God than we'll ever understand because they haven't built up the things that separate us: language, ego, etc. Plus, just maybe the parents' / guardians' love will do wonders for that baby and give comfort.

I have a mental illness which can be hard to deal with at times, but I'm glad that I am here and can experience God.

Right! No one has the right to say anyone shouldn't be here.

happen to change that? Should we then abort all babies because of the possibility that something may happen in the future?

Some scholars will go so far as to say: it will happen to all of us. Period. Whether through birth, accident or just the natural process of aging. So we should all annihilate ourselves?

Anyway I'll get off my soap box now

Aww -- great point though. People try to couch this view of a mercy-abortion in terms of sympathizing with an ill baby....but it really devalues humanity in general, implying that some people are worth more than others, and that the whole of society would benefit from not having to deal with the disabled. It makes me really sad.

 

[Called2Grace]

I love coming to OBOB it is so great to talk to other inspirational people! I have grown so much in my faith this last week.

Life is a beautiful precious thing.

 

[King of the Nations]

Is it possible to excommunicate people who have already died? What? Does St. Peter page them to the service desk and tell them there's been a mistake?

Can you imagine?

Greg

 

[Qidron]

here's some that come to mind (although man, that didache thing kind of shuts the case... that was written int eh VERY early Church):



These at least point to the fact that God recognizes us while we are in the womb while He was forming us. That with the "Thou shalt not murder" would point strongly against any ideaa of abortion.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate this.

 

[nyj]

Folks, the sources you are looking for are had if you simply google the specific Pope and Church Father I listed. Their writings can be confirmed.

I know where you got your source. I said as much. I wanted to hear it from you though. And no, you didn't use multiple sources, you used A source. There is a difference.

As an example, can you provide me the actual text from Pope Innocent's ruling on this Carthusian monk?

 

[Qidron]

I once knew a person who would use Exodus 23:19 as a Scripture cite against abortion, but I don't think it that's what it is referring to.

Perhaps the proponants of abortion do not consider the preborn to be people yet, but science has shown that since the preborn develop into people, they really are simply the people they develop into. (IMO, in that case, Exodus 20:13 STILL is your Scriptural statement against the practice.) Of course as you know, the proponents of abortion STILL will not listen to science either, so it's not surprising to me that they won't listen to the Scripture in the first place.

Thank you! The Exodus scripture is gross...never have I ever connected that with babies...but I can see the point.

I particularly appreciate this comment: "Perhaps the proponants of abortion do not consider the preborn to be people yet, but science has shown that since the preborn develop into people, they really are simply the people they develop into." So simple, so true. I probably will hang onto that most of all. It goes with the scripture Xpycoctomos shared where The Lord has had us in mind from our mothers' wombs. And I agree, I don't really expect those who oppose the truth to accept it...they have another agenda...but it is an obvious conclusion and I thank you for sharing it.

Qidron

 

[SolomonVII]

While not speaking indirectly to the question of abortion, Mary's Immaculate Conception. infallibly pronounced, implicitly makes a very strong statement on when human life begins.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

okay, can we just post the link here of that source?

 

[Xpycoctomos]

That... and even for protestants or even Orthdoox who dmay not agree with the IC... the simple fact of the the Annunciation... in the Bible. That should be an open and shut case for any Christian, Catholic or not.

John

 

[SolomonVII]

okay, can we just post the link here of that source?

Immaculate Conception 1854

Assumption 1950

"The Definition

Wherefore, in humility and fasting, we unceasingly offered our private prayers as well as the public prayers of the Church to God the Father through his Son, that he would deign to direct and strengthen our mind by the power of the Holy Spirit. In like manner did we implore the help of the entire heavenly host as we ardently invoked the Paraclete. Accordingly, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, for the honor of the Holy and undivided Trinity, for the glory and adornment of the Virgin Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith, and for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful."[29]

Hence, if anyone shall dare -- which God forbid! -- to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should are to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart. "

 

[King of the Nations]

While not speaking indirectly to the question of abortion, Mary's Immaculate Conception. infallibly pronounced, implicitly makes a very strong statement on when human life begins.

Astute observation, Solomon!



Greg