CATHOLICS ONLY: Abortion...

[zhilan]

I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.

How did you survive them? Where they able to move the baby into the womb?

 

[SmileBugMG]

I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.

Wow, really ZooMom? I was always given to understand that in ectopic pregnancies that there was no possibility for the baby to survive... it would just burst through the fallopian tube when it got too big... and the mother would possibly die from hemorrhage. My google skills are failing me in figuring this one out... care to elaborate?

I did find that IUDs increase the risk of ectopic pregnancy.

 

[Called2Grace]

I always thought that too.

 

[SpiritualGladiator]

Wow, really ZooMom? I was always given to understand that in ectopic pregnancies that there was no possibility for the baby to survive... it would just burst through the fallopian tube when it got too big... and the mother would possibly die from hemorrhage. My google skills are failing me in figuring this one out... care to elaborate?

The body has a natural tendency to miscarriage. The body is preprogrammed to take care of itself. In the case of ectopic pregnancies, miscarriages are far more common than any complications arising from the defective implantation. In this way, one could pray to God that He take care of things naturally.

Of course, in the case of a salpingectomy, the woman is permitted to seek this procedure out as it offers, in most cases, the least risk to herself. Remember that 95% of ectopic pregnancies are in the fallopian tubes, so a removal of a piece or all of the tube can save the mother, and the procedure is widely practiced. Of course it will lead to the termination of the life of the child. Any act that directly attacks the life of the fetus is a mortal sin, an act of abortion and is strictly prohibited. An act that attempts to deal with the imminant dangers of the pathology of the mother, whose life is equally as important as that of her child, is licit even if the result would be the death of the fetus.

For an excellent summary see: http://www.cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57

 

[Called2Grace]

So if I have an ectopic pregnancy it would be a mortal sin to have the operation to remove the piece of the tube?

 

[SpiritualGladiator]

So if I have an ectopic pregnancy it would be a mortal sin to have the operation to remove the piece of the tube?

No, that is the exact opposite to what I wrote:

Of course, in the case of a salpingectomy, the woman is permitted to seek this procedure out as it offers, in most cases, the least risk to herself. Remember that 95% of ectopic pregnancies are in the fallopian tubes, so a removal of a piece or all of the tube can save the mother, and the procedure is widely practiced. Of course it will lead to the termination of the life of the child. Any act that directly attacks the life of the fetus is a mortal sin, an act of abortion and is strictly prohibited. An act that attempts to deal with the imminant dangers of the pathology of the mother, whose life is equally as important as that of her child, is licit even if the result would be the death of the fetus.

Direct act, meaning going for the fetus, not the pathological tissue in and around the tube. Indirect act meaning, removing the tube, which has a result of terminating the life of the fetus. The act of terminating the life is indirect as the direct act was to remove the pathological tubal tissue.

 

[Called2Grace]

OK, sorry I thought you said Illicit, not licit....I will have to learn to pay more attention sorry.

 

[RedTulipMom]

I have survived two ectopic pregnancies...and aborted neither. Of course, I wasn't faced with the choice, either, but I would not have aborted. For any reason.

I am confused. So how did they get the babies out of the tubes then? Do they come out naturally at some point. Sorry, i am sure this must have been very hard for you. i am asking because i truly thought that with an ectopic pregnancy they HAD to go in and take the fetuses out.

 

[RedTulipMom]

When my mother was pregnant with my twin sister and I there were many complications, my mom nearly died having us. My sister did die at birth. The doctor told her she could never have more kids. She ended up pregnant 2 and a half years later with my brother. She was told by 3 doctors that she must have an abortion. They told her there was a 99% chance both her and the baby would die if she went through with the pregancy. My Mom was 100% against abortion. She prayed. She gave it to God to decide. She told my dad "If God wants to take me then he will, i can't PLAY God! There is a 1% chance i will LIVE according to doctors, but doctors arent God!" She went ahead with the pregnancy..and guess what..she lived, and my brother lived!! Praise the Lord! My brother is now 32 yrs old and has 4 beautiful children!! could you imagine if my mom listened to the doctors? Doctors dont know everything! GOD DOES!! its Gods choice, he could have taken my mother, my brother or both! Her decision would still have been the right one!! God chose to spare both their lives!

 

[ProCommunioneFacior]

When my mother was pregnant with my twin sister and I there were many complications, my mom nearly died having us. My sister did die at birth. The doctor told her she could never have more kids. She ended up pregnant 2 and a half years later with my brother. She was told by 3 doctors that she must have an abortion. They told her there was a 99% chance both her and the baby would die if she went through with the pregancy. My Mom was 100% against abortion. She prayed. She gave it to God to decide. She told my dad "If God wants to take me then he will, i can't PLAY God! There is a 1% chance i will LIVE according to doctors, but doctors arent God!" She went ahead with the pregnancy..and guess what..she lived, and my brother lived!! Praise the Lord! My brother is now 32 yrs old and has 4 beautiful children!! could you imagine if my mom listened to the doctors? Doctors dont know everything! GOD DOES!! its Gods choice, he could have taken my mother, my brother or both! Her decision would still have been the right one!! God chose to spare both their lives!

This reminds me of a story, if you don't mind me sharing.

I went on a men's retreat about a month ago. The retreat dealt with grief. One man, while we were sitting around the campfire on Saturday night gave a testimony of why he was there at the retreat(he is not a member of the parish that put on the retreat, neither am I, I went with my future father and brother in-laws). I hope I can remember it clearly. It went something like this.

He was baptized Catholic but non-practicing and an avowed atheist. His wife was a non-practicing non-denominational christian. Well his wife 6 years ago found out that she was diagnosed with cancer, she was given 6-12 months to live, and was told that she would not be able to have a baby(ovarian cancer?). Faced with this dilemna and suffering, she decided to seek God, so she started going to church, and because she wanted her husband to come with her, she went to the Catholic Church (St. Anne's, BrotherKnight) and dragged him along. She became on fire for Christ, entered RCIA (dragging her husband along with her) and became Catholic. She then started volunteering for the Church, teaching RCIA, being very active.

Well about 4 1/2 years later, not only was she still alive, but she also found out she was pregnant. The doctor telling her that she would not be able to survive the pregnancy, told her that she would need to get an abortion. She absolutely refused to do so. Well 6 months ago she gave birth to a baby, and the next day died.

The husband is now a single father of 3 children. During his telling of the story, it absolutely amazed me the serenity, faith, and love this man had. It was one of the most beautiful experiences I have ever had to hear a man, a former atheist, give testimony to the power of faith and love, absolutely astounded me.

 

[holyorders]

Those quotes are really bothering and upsetting to me. Can someone please explain those? How could popes have supported that it was ever ok to have an abortion?

Just because the Catholic Church was confused about when a child was viable (having a soul) does not mean that they supported people to be able to have an abortion.

 

[RoseofLima]

Look, Catholics hold the pope's ex catherdra with more reverance than scripture. So I was sarcastic...I have my reasons. But my question is sincere and focuses on the OP none the less.

If the Popes edicts are not making the abortion/murder issue clear...WHAT DOES SCRIPTURE SAY ABOUT ABORTION? It seems perfectly clear to me that abortion is murder...my heart tells me that it is....but I am not sure what the Word says. Do you know?

Instead of smoking up the thread...FOCUS.

Qidron

As an aside, before reading any further,-- CAtholics hold Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium together-- they are not seperable components- but rather held together.

Scripture, in the form of the Bible we all read (with or without the Deutoro-canonical books)- is a product of the Catholic Church- of Her traditions and teaching authority. The Bible didn't just fall out of the sky one day. The books chosen to be included and excluded- were decided by the Catholic Church. If the Church was indeed the harlot of Babylon, or some such as she is oft accused of being- I doubt God would have entrusted something so vitally important to us all at its very inception. Everytime you read the Bible, you ought to whisper a little prayer of thanksgiving for the Catholic Church, becuase without Her there would be no Bible in your hands.

Where did She get this authority? From Jesus- and it has been passed on down through the ages in Apostolic succession (that's what it means in the Nicene Creed when we say apostolic- it's talking about the unbroken authority passed on through the laying on of hands from the original 12--you can see it in Acts when Matthias is chosen to replace Judas).

 

[RoseofLima]

This reminds me of a story, if you don't mind me sharing.

I went on a men's retreat about a month ago. The retreat dealt with grief. One man, while we were sitting around the campfire on Saturday night gave a testimony of why he was there at the retreat(he is not a member of the parish that put on the retreat, neither am I, I went with my future father and brother in-laws). I hope I can remember it clearly. It went something like this.

He was baptized Catholic but non-practicing and an avowed atheist. His wife was a non-practicing non-denominational christian. Well his wife 6 years ago found out that she was diagnosed with cancer, she was given 6-12 months to live, and was told that she would not be able to have a baby(ovarian cancer?). Faced with this dilemna and suffering, she decided to seek God, so she started going to church, and because she wanted her husband to come with her, she went to the Catholic Church (St. Anne's, BrotherKnight) and dragged him along. She became on fire for Christ, entered RCIA (dragging her husband along with her) and became Catholic. She then started volunteering for the Church, teaching RCIA, being very active.

Well about 4 1/2 years later, not only was she still alive, but she also found out she was pregnant. The doctor telling her that she would not be able to survive the pregnancy, told her that she would need to get an abortion. She absolutely refused to do so. Well 6 months ago she gave birth to a baby, and the next day died.

The husband is now a single father of 3 children. During his telling of the story, it absolutely amazed me the serenity, faith, and love this man had. It was one of the most beautiful experiences I have ever had to hear a man, a former atheist, give testimony to the power of faith and love, absolutely astounded me.

That is moving beyond words.....

 

[ZooMom]

To those who asked about my ectopic pregnancies...in both cases the tube ruptured and surgery was required to remove the damaged tissue. A ruptured fallopian tube is not instantly fatal. The first time this happened was about 8 or 9 years ago, right after I had had Mallory. I was hemorraging badly that time because I had waited over the weekend with abdominal pains before going to the doctor Monday morning...I had no idea that I could be or was pregnant. I thought I had an intestinal virus or something. But still, after waiting approximately three days after the rupture occured, I still only lost just over a pint of blood. This last time, they caught it earlier, but still after the rupture.

There is no way to move a baby once it has implanted. It will not reimplant. Ever. So the only options in a fallopian ectopic are to either abort and kill the fetus and possibly save the tube (though this is not guaranteed), or allow it to rupture (at which point the fetus dies instantly) and remove the damaged tube.

The thing is, though, that very VERY few ectopics are caught early enough for this to even be an issue. Most are not discovered until after rupture. So I'd be willing to bet that every death attributable to an ectopic pregnancy resulted from the woman not knowing what had happened and not seeking medical attention. There is some pain, but at least for me, it wasn't unbearable and not the type of distress that would send most women running to the doctor.

But...if I had had the choice, if they had caught the pregnancy before it ruptured, I still would not have aborted. I couldn't make myself do that. Either way...one has to go through surgery, so you wouldn't be 'sparing' yourself anything to abort. the only way I see a problem with letting the rupture occur naturally is if the woman is an hemophiliac (free bleeder). So what are the odds that an hemophiliac woman will have an ectopic pregnancy and they find out before the rupture...pretty slim.

I have wondered for a long time where this panic over ectopic pregnancies has come from. And I think I have figured it out. It comes from pro-abortionists who want a distraction to wave under the prolife nose...to sidetrack from the real issue. It's part of all the 'well what abouts' that they come up with to try to justify abortion.Well what about rape...well what about incest...well what about... See, they tell people 'Well what about in cases of ectopic pregnancy? The mother will DIE if she doesn't abort!' And people are frightened by that and start scrambling to try to find a 'loophole' in morality, since of course we don't want women DYING because they WON"T have an abortion. It's very effective. But it isn't true. Abortion is always...no matter what...wrong.


Peace be with you.

Sandy

 

[nyj]

Where are you getting your sources?

Hello, Raist? Hello?

 

[ZooMom]

Hello, Raist? Hello?

I'm sorry. The number you have dialed is no longer in service. Please deposit $500, then hang up and try your call again. Thank you.

 

[Benedicta00]

Let me say first that I am a devout Catholic. And that abortion is contrary to all Catholic teaching. However, it was not always clear when the Church believed a child had a soul. Popes may have fallen into placing credence in Thomistic teachings, but I agree that abortion was not deemed to have been freed from it's distinction as a sin.

St. Augustine (354-430 CE) reversed centuries of Christian teaching in Western Europe, and returned to the Aristotelian concept of "delayed ensoulment." He wrote 7 that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated). He wrote extensively on sexual matters, teaching that the original sin of Adam and Eve are passed to each successive generation through the pleasure generated during sexual intercourse. This passed into the church's canon law. Only abortion of a more fully developed "fetus animatus" (animated fetus) was punished as murder.

St. Jerome wrote in a letter to Aglasia: "The seed gradually takes shape in the uterus, and it [abortion] does not count as killing until the individual elements have acquired their external appearance and their limbs"

Pope Innocent III (?-1216) wrote a letter which ruled on a case of a Carthusian monk who had arranged for his female lover to obtain an abortion. The Pope decided that the monk was not guilty of homicide if the fetus was not "animated."

Early in the 13th century, Pope Innocent III stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of "quickening" - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. After ensoulment, abortion was equated with murder; before that time, it was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human life, not human life.

St. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) also considered only the abortion of an "animated" fetus as murder.

Pope Sixtus V issued a Papal bull "Effraenatam" in 1588 which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty. Pope Gregory XIV revoked the Papal bull shortly after taking office in 1591. He reinstated the "quickening" test, which he said happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).

It was Pope Pius IX who reversed the stance of the Roman Catholic church once more. He dropped the distinction between the "fetus animatus" and "fetus inanimatus" in 1869. Canon law was revised in 1917 and 1983 and to refer simply to "the fetus." The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries ended. The church requires excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.

All I see here is a bunch of twisting to claim the Church supported abortion. All I see is taking the lack of the early Church’s knowledge on gestation and using their error about what they thought it was and applying this to justify abortion in your own mind.

If they believed it- they would be wrong and just because they were wrong does not mean they knew better- they didn’t know any better and that does not a infallible decree make. Opinion does not make dogma. The question would be in light of knowing what we do know now scientifically about the matter, would they support abortion? We know the Church condemns it and rightfully so because murder is sin of the worse kind so would these ppl you cite put away their error and submit to the Church toady? I think they would.

 

[King of the Nations]

To those who asked about my ectopic pregnancies...in both cases the tube ruptured and surgery was required to remove the damaged tissue. A ruptured fallopian tube is not instantly fatal. The first time this happened was about 8 or 9 years ago, right after I had had Mallory. I was hemorraging badly that time because I had waited over the weekend with abdominal pains before going to the doctor Monday morning...I had no idea that I could be or was pregnant. I thought I had an intestinal virus or something. But still, after waiting approximately three days after the rupture occured, I still only lost just over a pint of blood. This last time, they caught it earlier, but still after the rupture.

There is no way to move a baby once it has implanted. It will not reimplant. Ever. So the only options in a fallopian ectopic are to either abort and kill the fetus and possibly save the tube (though this is not guaranteed), or allow it to rupture (at which point the fetus dies instantly) and remove the damaged tube.

The thing is, though, that very VERY few ectopics are caught early enough for this to even be an issue. Most are not discovered until after rupture. So I'd be willing to bet that every death attributable to an ectopic pregnancy resulted from the woman not knowing what had happened and not seeking medical attention. There is some pain, but at least for me, it wasn't unbearable and not the type of distress that would send most women running to the doctor.

But...if I had had the choice, if they had caught the pregnancy before it ruptured, I still would not have aborted. I couldn't make myself do that. Either way...one has to go through surgery, so you wouldn't be 'sparing' yourself anything to abort. the only way I see a problem with letting the rupture occur naturally is if the woman is an hemophiliac (free bleeder). So what are the odds that an hemophiliac woman will have an ectopic pregnancy and they find out before the rupture...pretty slim.

I have wondered for a long time where this panic over ectopic pregnancies has come from. And I think I have figured it out. It comes from pro-abortionists who want a distraction to wave under the prolife nose...to sidetrack from the real issue. It's part of all the 'well what abouts' that they come up with to try to justify abortion.Well what about rape...well what about incest...well what about... See, they tell people 'Well what about in cases of ectopic pregnancy? The mother will DIE if she doesn't abort!' And people are frightened by that and start scrambling to try to find a 'loophole' in morality, since of course we don't want women DYING because they WON"T have an abortion. It's very effective. But it isn't true. Abortion is always...no matter what...wrong.


Peace be with you.

Sandy

Dear mods,

Would you consider making this post a sticky? Seems like this issue comes up often enough that it would be helpful to simply be able to point people to a pre-written thread that I can't imagine starting any better than this.



Greg

 

[Raist3001]

Folks, the sources you are looking for are had if you simply google the specific Pope and Church Father I listed. Their writings can be confirmed. An honest study into Church history will reveal that although the Church ALWAYS regarded abortion as sin, when the soul presented itself was always unclear, and abortions were allowed in very early stages.

This is where I found the claims to the church's early stance on abortion.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm

This is NOT to say that the Church tought acceptance of abortion, because the Didache is very clear in that. My question pertained to weather or not an infallible decree today, (which I can find no evidence of) would automatically excommunicate those whom in the past were a bit lenient regarding abortion.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Raist, do you think you can trust that source to not take things out of context?

Michelle