Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[Darrel Slugoski]

He does say present with the Lord.

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.(2 Corinthians 5:6-7)

I will defer to this apostolic teaching. I bolded "we" so there is no confusion only what is deemed later in church history as distinct saints is not exclusive here.



Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness,if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (Romans 11:22)

There is a bit of tension in the context. Paul is discussing the gospel and comparing the Jews with Gentiles. Second point would be the bolded. This does not support purgatory given even you admitted it is temporary and souls who go there are not cut off from the Grace of God.



The age to come where we have our incorruptible resurrected bodies. The intermediary state of our souls is the subject.

Second point the context is the unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit. This would be a mortal sin according to the Catholic church. How one can apply this verse to the venal type sins the Catholic church says are purified in purgatory is wresting the text.


Nowhere in the NT do we see someone can lose the justification which God grants by Grace.

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.(Romans 5:9)

Plus I thought purgatory was just a purifying place to wash off venal sins. If we lose our justification or apostasize don't we head to the other place? Such would be a mortal sin.



Yes we see two places in Luke 16. There is a gulf where one cannot travel to the other place.



The rich man is in torment. I thought purgatory was not a place of torment.

The rich man's intercession was rebuked and shutdown.
Luke 16:

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Sounds like the brothers were on their own to seek the revelation of God.

I will also point out Catholic purgatory has those still here on earth praying for those in purgatory. Not those in purgatory praying for the living. You have a man in torment trying to intercede when it should be the other way.




For Jews such is not to be found in TaNaKh. Such traditions were seen in some communities in intertestament times (diaspora Jews in Egypt for example), but not one prayer for the dead in the Torah or Prophets nor in the psalms.

I will add the use of Maccabees does not help out the Catholic argument for purgatory. The men who they prayed for and made offerings died in mortal sin (idolatry). Which according to Catholic purgatory only venal sins are purged.

The reason I brought in the Eastern church was due to their differing view. I linked you to The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory for a reason. The Scriptures you cite in support of purgatory were refuted by the Eastern bishops at Pseudo-Synod of Ferrara-Florence (1438-1445) . Here's an excerpt:

In the following sitting the Latins presented a defence of their doctrine on purgatory. As much as can be concluded from the answer given by the Greeks to it, they tried to prove their doctrine by the words of 2 Mac. xii. 42, 46, where it is said that Judas Maccabaeus "sent to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering," remarking at the same time "that it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin." They also quoted the words of Jesus Christ, "Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (S. Matt. xii. 32.) But their especial defence was founded on the words of the Apostle S. Paul (I Cor. iii. 11, 15): "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." Different extracts were also made by the Latins from the works of the Eastern Fathers—Basil the Great, Epiphanius of Cyprus, John Damascene, Dionysius the Areopagite, Theodoret, Gregory of Nyssa; and the Western—Augustine, Ambrose, and Gregory the Great. They did not also forget to quote the authority of the Church of Rome in defence of their doctrine, and to make use of their usual sophistries.

To all this the Orthodox party gave a clear and satisfactory answer. [5] They remarked, that the words quoted from the book of Maccabees, and our Saviour's words, can only prove that some sins will be forgiven after death; but whether by means of punishment by fire, or by other means, nothing was known for certain. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

[...]

Continuing the Eastern contingent makes it clear such a place as purgatory is not an infallible teaching:

In answer to the words quoted by the Latins from Basil the Great (in his prayer for Pentecost), Epiphanius, John Damascene, and Dionysius the Areopagite, the defenders of the orthodox doctrine remarked, that these quotations did not prove anything to the advantage of the Church of Rome. They could not even find the testimony of Theodoret adduced by the Latins. "Only one Father remains," they continued, "Gregory the blessed priest of Nyssa, who, apparently, speaks more to your advantage than any of the other Fathers. Preserving all the respect due to this Father, we cannot refrain from noticing, that he was but a mortal man, and man, however great a degree of holiness he may attain, is very apt to err, especially on such subjects, which have not been examined before or determined upon in a general Council by the Fathers." The orthodox teachers, when speaking of Gregory, more than once restrict their words by the expression: "if such was his idea," and conclude their discussion upon Gregory with the following words: "we must view the general doctrine of the Church, and take the Holy Scripture as a rule for ourselves, nor paying attention to what each has written in his private capacity (idia)."

The Eastern teachers said, concerning the testimonies of the Western Fathers, that they were rather ignorant of them, not having any translation in Greek, and tried to excuse them by the circumstances under which they wrote, their misunderstanding the Apostle's words (I Cor. iii. 11, 15), the difficulty of drawing a general conclusion from many circumstances (founded on visions), &c.

As regards the weight of the opinion of the Church of Rome pointed to by the Latins, it was found by the Greeks to be inconsistent with the subject then in hand.

Lastly, to the Latin sophistries, they opposed the more valid conclusions from the principles of the doctrine of Christ, from many works of the Fathers, from the parable of Lazarus, where mention is made of Abraham's bosom,—the place of bliss,—and of hell the place of punishment; and nothing is said of any intermediate place for temporal punishments.

The Greek answer was evidently intended to show the Latins the unsoundness of their newly-invented doctrine on the one side, and the steadfastness of the orthodox party in the faith handed down to them by the Apostles and the holy Fathers, on the other. In the course of the disputes the principal question branched off into so many light and abstract questions, that as a matter of course the solution of the chief one became still more difficult. The Latins for instance asked where and how the angels fly? what was the substance of hell fire? The last question met with the following answer from Jagaris, the imperial officer: "the querist will get a satisfactory solution to his question, when he experiences the nature of that fire himself." [6]

I think we can conclude the Latin concept of purgatory was clearly a doctrinal development as the Eastern church deferred to Christ in Luke 16 and apostolic teachings.

This synod was in the 15th century.



Temporal is just that, temporal as in this world.



All such were meted out in their lifetimes. Including all in this fallen flesh die. I don't think either one of us can deny no matter our spiritual standing with God, we hu-mans suffer the consequences of our actions. Which God justly chastises us as any good father would his own child. (Hebrews 12:6)

What we don't have in Sacred Scriptures is this chastisement occurring in any intermediary state.



I have to disagree for two reasons:

1. Sins are not the subject but rewards.

2. "for the Day will declare it," which refers to the day of the Lord. Which by your own catechism is Judgment Day and the Resurrection of the dead.

Here's the context:


1 Corinthians 3:

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It would be a good reference for purgatory if sin, transgressions or impurities were mentioned. They are not.

Other than what was already quoted where we are either in the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16) and or absent from this body present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5 and Philippians 1) with regards to an intermediary state, we do have other promises:

teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20)

John 14:
“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”

And the beautiful inspired words of St Peter:

1 Peter 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

What denomination are you ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What denomination are you ?

Well,
there's ecclesia,
and then there's all others.....

 

[redleghunter]

What denomination are you ?

I am Evangelical. My pastors and elders hail from Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist seminaries.

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools through university. A very strict Irish Catholic family.

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

I do see the presentation as eisegesis. As I do consider most of the garden variety of eschatology out there as such too.

Here's why. My friends who tell me they can prove a pre tribulation rapture, start with that concept. They are going to take me all over the Bible to show me where they can find allusions, portions of verses and yes out of context text to prove their point. All they have done is stuff a bag full of text to "prove" their concept. That is the very definition of eisegesis.

Instead of a clear teaching on the Resurrection or tribulation which can be found in the NT supported by the OT. I pay careful of the eschatology which uses the words of Christ and His apostles (and OT prophets) within the context of their teaching or sermon or epistle. This way I can draw from the source within context.

The arguments for purgatory follow the same logic as the left behind theology. It starts with a concept not taught clearly by either Christ nor His apostles.

To understand the Catholic Church read this whole post . I cant explain this without going into detail. This is for you and any other christian who wants to understand how we have come up with our doctrines as Catholics .

Again it is all about how to interpret scripture . Again Jews , Catholics , Orthodox pray for their dead ( you seem to be denying that we do this practice of praying for the dead ) The Orthodox deny the doctrine of Purgatory but they do believe in a purification process called Toll Houses .Toll Houses is taught by the Orthodox Church . Purgatory is taught by the Catholic Church . And Jews still pray fr their dead ( Jewish services which I have attended )

Purgatory is a process of purification of those with venial sins yes, and not mortal sins. This is supported in scriptures such as 2 Macc 12;44-46 ( atonement for the dead to free them from sin ), 1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison ) , 1 Cor 15:29-30 and 1 cor 15:29-30 ( baptizing the dead ) 1 Cor 315 ( saved through fire ) Mt 5:26 ( where you will not be released until you pay the last penny ) Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next ) 1 John 5:16-17 ( degrees of sin distinguished ) and Mark 9;49 ( all will be salted by fire )

I did give you one quote From St Augustine there are others in defence of this doctrine . The Orthodox believe they are the only true Church and they believe in toll houses . Catholic believe we are the true Church and believe in purgatory . We both have developed doctrine . The thing is both the Orthodox and Catholic Church can trace are heritage and doctrine to the teachings of Christ And his Apostles. We interpreted scripture together, up to the 7th Council . We both have 7 sacraments ( and generally hold the same doctrines defining the sacraments and other issues facing the Church ) The Catholic defined doctrine more clearly unlike the Orthodox who are frozen in time . Transubstantiation ( like the term Purgatory ) was an example of this, to further explain the eucharist by the Catholic Church . The Orthodox and the Catholic Church held the Councils in response to wrong interpretation of scripture and thus develop ( to more precisely define doctrine ) in time of crisis or when the need arose . The orthodox separated from the West in 1024 slipping away from the church which held the " presidency "( they believe the Church of Rome and the Pope are considered the first amongst " equals ") But they ignore the Church Fathers which claim much more for the pope and the church of Rome . Much like Protestants do . And as a result everyone claims to to be their own pope claiming infallibility in interpreting scripture. There are so many churches or individuals who claim the word of God speaks for itself . But it is not self interpreting, each of you will end up contradicting each other at some point and start a church . the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and you can read the early Church Fathers to verify that .

I don't think you truly understand how we Catholics and Orthodox understand the development of doctrine . If you would take time to read the early church fathers and study the writings of the first 7 councils You may find them to be Catholic in their understanding of scripture .

I believe that I can prove from scripture that Christ intended only one Church , under the pope, which can be defended from from scripture and the Early Church fathers who are my witnesses . As The Catholic church, founded by Christ, we also have the authority to define or interpret scripture . And as Martin Luther said " without the Catholic Church we would have no knowledge of scripture ". Our priests copied it by hand for 2000 years until the printing press from the very beginning and in 397 ad under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, decided the cannon of scripture .

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

I am Evangelical. My pastors and elders hail from Presbyterian and Reformed Baptist seminaries.

I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic schools through university. A very strict Irish Catholic family.

Thanks . I have wrote my reply to you , with a challenge for myself . If you are willing we should move on . Good night and may God bless you . keep doing what your doing . You have my respect .

 

[redleghunter]

Thanks . I have wrote my reply to you , with a challenge for myself . If you are willing we should move on . Good night and may God bless you . keep doing what your doing . You have my respect .

Thank you and I too have found our discussion a blessing.

God Bless.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Purgatory is a process of purification of those with venial sins yes, and not mortal sins.

Which is based upon a false premise, that of the need for perfection of character (if by grace) in order to be with God, versus penitent faith which appropriates justification, which purifies the heart (Acts 15:9) and is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5) and renders one accepted in the Beloved (on His account) and positionally seated together with their Lord in Heaven, (Ephesians 1:6; 2:6) from where they await the Lord's return and His final subduing of our "vile body," that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body," (Philippians 3:21)and which is the only transformative change after this life that the Scriptures speak of.

However, this saving justifying faith, is a faith which effects obedience by the Spirit, in word and in deed, in heart and in life, whereby "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, (Romans 8:4) insofar as we do. And since faith and works go together like light and heat, sometimes they are used interchangeably as to what they effect. And which obedience includes penitent confession when convicted of not pleasing the Object of his faith for salvation, the risen Lord Jesus.

The appeal to the believer is to produce fruit consistent with faith, as a consequence of being accepted in the Beloved (on His account), to be practically (in heart and deed) as they are positionally in Christ, to be as much conformed to the Lord Jesus in this life as we can be, and will be in the resurrection. (Philippians 3:7-21)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. (Galatians 5:25)

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Colossians 3:1-4)

But which progressive practical sanctification is not the cause of the sinner's justification and acceptance in Christ, but testifies to such being a believer, evidencing "things which accompany salvation," (Hebrews 6:9) and fit to be rewarded. (Revelation 3:4) For this faith, as manifested in said obedience, God will recompense (Hebrews 10:35) under grace, even though it is God who motivates and enables all obedience, (Philippians 1:12,13) while the only thing we can and must take credit for it our disobedience.

In contrast to this salvation by effectual faith, is salvation by grace thru works, as in Roman Catholicism, in which by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God via the act of baptism, even without the required wholehearted repentant faith. (Acts 8:38; 8:36,37)

However, since the carnal nature remains and few successfully attain to complete victory over any attachment to sin and perfection of character, then most baptized souls are sent to Roman Catholic (EOs trend to reject Rome's) Purgatory to endure purifying torments to atone for sins they sufficiently failed to provide for while on earth, and become good enough to enter glory.

There is some wiggle room as regards the conditions of purgatory since what this suffering actually entails and how long are not dogmatically taught, but while salvation by grace thru faith as in sola fide means it is effectual faith being imputed for righteousness that justifies, salvation by grace thru works means that by grace one is actually made good enough to be with God, which premise either requires perfection of character in this life (and which merely being made clean in baptism would actually not effect) or postmortem purifying torments.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc.

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Purgatory

Likewise Catholic professor Peter Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

However, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

And the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ, which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

And even in making the Lord "perfect" as in experiencing testing, being "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," (Hebrews 4:15) then it was in this world: "For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." (Hebrews 2:10)

This is supported in scriptures such as 2 Macc 12;44-46 ( atonement for the dead to free them from sin ),

But of what support is that of praying for men whom the text clearly stated were slain for their idolatry, which is a mortal sin? Meanwhile believing this book was Scripture proper was not required until after Luther died, almost 1400 years after the last book was penned.

1 Peter 3:18-20;4:6 ( Peter preaching to the spirits in prison ) ,

Which was to the lost souls like those of Noah's day, "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water," and it is obvious they had not attained to perfection of character. But with His resurrection (Matthew 27:52) the Lord set free those in Abraham's bosom, (Ephesians 4:8,9) which is not purgatory but OT paradise (Luke 23:43) which is now Heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:4)

1 Cor 15:29-30 and 1 cor 15:29-30 ( baptizing the dead )

You resort to that for support? So do the Mormons, and it supports nothing than was it was invoked for, that of their being a resurrection which some ("they," not "we") thought postmortem baptism would effect, but with nothing inferred as purgatory. And which the Holy Spirit would never fail to clearly teach on, if it indeed was of Catholic importance.

1 Cor 315 ( saved through fire )

Utterly invalidated as explained above in bold, by God's grace.

Mt 5:26 ( where you will not be released until you pay the last penny )

So you must resort to dark sayings. Rather than Matthew 5:25-26 being "explicit about Purgatory" as Staples imagines this either refers to this life, or punishment in Hell, which is the context of Matthew 5:24-25 (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 5:27-29; cf. Mark 9:43), and Caths argue (Mt. 1:25) that "until" need not mean a terminus is inferred.

And here this story cannot be analogous to purgatory, since that is for forgiven souls who have some expiation to make for venial sins, but in Matthew 5:22-26, rather than a mere venial sin, the description here is of a "mortal sin." And neither was this man forgiven, but was damned, and given the vast amount he had to pay, i think "Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing" (Matthew 5:26) is saying he never will come out,

Mt 12:32 (sin is forgiven in this age or the next )

That is simple, except Rome rejects the 1,000 year reign of Christ in which there will be sin and forgiveness of sins, as Ezekiel shows in his many chapters which defy then as being mere allegory.

1 John 5:16-17 ( degrees of sin distinguished )

Which refers to apostasy, and there are degrees of sin, and of accountability and guilt, thus degrees of punishment, (Matthew 11:20-24) but which description are only about Hell, not some interim place.

and Mark 9;49 ( all will be salted by fire )

Which is simply another example of the egregious extrapolation you must resort to in order attempt to postulate some sort of support for what you can only wish Scripture manifestly taught, but which it does not!
Here the only postmortem reality that is seen in the context is that of Hell: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48) and otherwise it speaks of salt (Mark 9:49,50; cf. Lev. 2:13; Eze 43:24) which represent holiness, which works for peace, and one either has it or they are good for nothing, (Mt. 5:13) and and there is nothing that infers purgatory in order to get it or more of it, though this would be one of many places we could expect to see it if it were true.

I did give you one quote From St Augustine there are others in defence of this doctrine . The Orthodox believe they are the only true Church and they believe in toll houses .

Which no more makes it true then believing in postmortem toll house cookies.

Catholic believe we are the true Church and believe in purgatory . We both have developed doctrine .

Indeed you have, for the problem of lack of evidence and conflict btwn what Scripture and history testifies to necessitated the art of Development of Doctrine.

The thing is both the Orthodox and Catholic Church can trace are heritage and doctrine to the teachings of Christ And his Apostles.

No, not Catholic distinctives you cannot,which are not what is manifest in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (including how they understood the gospels).

Which, church,

• 1. Was not based upon the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility of office as per Rome, which has presumed to infallibly declare that she is and will perpetually be infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.
• 2.. Never promised or taught ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility was essential for preservation of truth, including writings to be discerned and established as Scripture, and for assurance of faith, and that historical descent as the stewards of Scripture means that such possessed ensured infallibility.
• 3. Never was a church that manifested the Lord's supper as being the central means of grace, around which all else revolved, it being the source and summit of the Christian faith in which the work of our redemption is accomplished, by which one received spiritual life in themselves by consuming human flesh, so that without which eating one cannot have eternal life (as per RC literalism, of Jn. 6:53,54). In contrast to believing the gospel by which one is regenerated, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and desiring the milk (1Pt. 2:2) and then the strong meat (Heb. 5:12-14) of the word of God, being nourished (1Tim. 4:6) by hearing the word of God and letting it dwell in them, (Col. 3:16) by which word (Scriptures) man is to live by, (Mt. 4:4) as Christ lived by the Father, (Jn. 6:57) doing His will being His meat. (Jn. 4:34) And with the Lord's supper, which is only manifestly described once in the life of the church, focusing on the church being the body of Christ in showing the Lord sacrificial death by that communal meal.
• 4. Never had any pastors titled "priests" as they did not engage in any unique sacrificial function, that of turning bread into human flesh and dispensing it to the people, or even dispensing bread as their primary ordained function, versus preaching the word. (2Tim. 4:2)
• 5. Never differentiated between bishops and elders, and with grand titles ("Most Reverend Eminence," Very Reverend, Most Illustrious and Most Reverend Lord, His Eminence Cardinal, The Most Reverend the Archbishop, etc.) or made themselves distinct by their ostentatious pompous garb. (Matthew 23:5-7) Or were all to be formally called father as that would require them to be spiritual fathers to all (Mt. 23:8-10 is a form of hyperbole, reproving the love of titles such as Catholicism examples, and thinking of men above that which is written, and instead the Lord emphasizes the One Father of all who are born of the Spirit, whom He Himself worked to glorify).
• 6. Never required clerical celibacy as the norm, (1Tim. 3:17) which presumes all such have that gift, (1Cor. 7:7) or otherwise manifested that celibacy was the norm among apostles and pastors, or had vowed to be so. (1Cor. 9:4; Titus 1:5,6)
• 7. Never taught that Peter was the "rock" of Mt. 16:18 upon which the church is built, interpreting Mt. 16:18, rather than upon the rock of the faith confessed by Peter, thus Christ Himself. (For in contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (petra) or "stone" (lithos, and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Rome's current catechism attempts to have Peter himself as the rock as well, but also affirms: On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church, (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424) which understanding some of the so-called church fathers concur with.)
• 8. Never taught or exampled that all the churches were to look to Peter as the bishop of Rome, as the first of a line of supreme heads reigning over all the churches, and having the last word in questions affecting the whole Church.
• 9. Never recorded or taught any apostolic successors (like for James: Acts 12:1,2) after Judas who was to maintain the original 12: Rv. 21:14) or elected any apostolic successors by voting, versus casting lots (no politics). (Acts 1:15ff)
• 10. Never recorded or manifested (not by conjecture) sprinkling or baptism without repentant personal faith, that being the stated requirement for baptism. (Acts 2:38; 8:36-38)
• 11. Never preached a gospel of salvation which begins with becoming good enough inside (formally justified due to infused interior charity), via sprinkling (RC "baptism") in recognition of proxy faith, and which thus usually ends with becoming good enough again to enter Heaven via suffering in purgatory, commencing at death.
• 12. Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity (contrary to Chrysostom), if able and available, sometimes even outlawing it when it was.
• 13. Never used the sword of men to deal with its theological dissenters.
• 14. Never taught that the deity Muslims worship (who is not as an "unknown god") is the same as theirs.
• 15. Never had a separate class of believers called saints.
• 16. Never prayed to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or were instructed to (i.e. "our Mother who art in Heaven") who were able to hear and respond to virtually unlimited prayers addressed to them (a uniquely Divine attribute in Scripture).
• 17. Never recorded a women who never sinned, and was a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as in leaving and sexually cleaving) and who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted (officially or with implicit sanction) as
• " an "omnipotent" or almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to,
• " whose [Mary] merits we are saved by,
• " who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin,"
• " and was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is a fact (unsubstantiated in Scripture or even early Tradition) because the Roman church says it is, and "was elevated to a certain affinity with the Heavenly Father,"
• " and whose power now "is all but unlimited,"
• " for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God,"
• " "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven,"
• " so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse."
• " and that sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus,"
• " for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation,"
• " Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose,"
• " and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven,"
• " including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels,"
• " whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with 'Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests,"
• " and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess,"
• " and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation." Sources and more.

I believe that I can prove from scripture that Christ intended only one Church , under the pope, which can be defended from from scripture and the Early Church fathers who are my witnesses

.
Meaning you subject what Scripture means to what the Early Church fathers selectively say based upon whether they conform to what Rome says, which is you only infallible authority.

For Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

And thus your argumentation is mere sophistry.

As The Catholic church, founded by Christ, we also have the authority to define or interpret scripture .

Meaning she says so, or is your argument that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority.

And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that Rome is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God?

And as Martin Luther said " without the Catholic Church we would have no knowledge of scripture "

.
Go get me the source of that quote and its context, or cease to use it.

Our priests copied it by hand for 2000 years until the printing press from the very beginning and in 397 ad under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, decided the cannon of scripture .

So? Answer my question above. Meanwhile, nowhere does the NT teach a separate sacerdotal class of believers, corresponding to the Old Testament priesthood, kohen, for which the distinctive Greek word "hiereus" is uniquely used by the Holy Spirit in NT.

But who never uses that distinctive word for NT church pastors, and instead the words "episkopos" (superintendent or overseer, referring to function), and "presbuteros" (senior, in age, implying maturity, and or position) were used, with both referring to the same person in the pastoral office. (Titus 1:5,7; Acts 20:17,28)

All believers are called to sacrifice (Rm. 12:1; 15:16; Phil. 2:17; 4:18; Heb. 13:15,16; cf. 9:9) and all constitute the only priesthood (hieráteuma) in the NT church, that of all believers, (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6).

However, since in Catholicism presbyters are considered a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers then Catholicism translates the distinctive Greek word hiereus for their priests as a denoting this distinctive sacerdotal class, thereby losing the distinction the Holy Spirit provided by never distinctively using the term of hiereus for NT presbuteros, or describing as them as a distinctive sacerdotal class of believers.

You will never even see them described as conducting the Lord's supper in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (Acts - Revelation, including how they understood the gospels) of what the church did and how they understood the gospels. Though I am sure they did conduct this, yet they are not seen or charged with this in the epistles as being a unique and or primary function, nor preaching the Lord's supper as the means of regeneration, that of obtaining spiritual life.

Which is in contrast to presbuteros/episkopeos (same persons) being charged with and exampled as preaching the word as their primary active function, (2Tim. 4:2) feeding the flock thereby. (Acts 20:28) with believing the gospel being the means of regeneration, of obtaining spiritual life (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) and being nourished (1Tim. 4:6) and built up (Acts 20:32) for the word, is what is called spiritual food, "milk" (1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22) and "meat," (Heb. 5:12-14

Which is just one of the many Catholic distinctives not seen in the inspired record of what the church did and how they understood the gospels.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't think you truly understand how we Catholics and Orthodox understand the development of doctrine . If you would take time to read the early church fathers and study the writings of the first 7 councils You may find them to be Catholic in their understanding of scripture .

I don't think you will get much argument from Protestants, Reformed nor Evangelicals here on the early councils which addressed Orthodox Christology. You will find most of us, yours truly too, to be ardent defenders of the Trinitarian faith and fierce defenders of the Deity of Christ.

It is my hope that in such threads where posters take heretical positions we can get more Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox involved.

 

[redleghunter]

In addition, the whole premise that suffering itself perfects a person is specious, since testing of character requires being able to choose btwn alternatives, and which this world provides. Thus it is only this world that Scripture peaks of here development of character, such as "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations." (1 Peter 1:6)

Good point. As I pointed out earlier this punishment was foreign even to the EOs. They looked at the Latin view of punishment for the forgiveness of sins as inconsistent. Their point was we are either forgiven or punished not both:

Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory

 

[Major1]

Read above quote , its more on topic .

It really does not help your cause my friend. We all know that you and every other Catholic believer are doing due diligence by parroting Catholic teachings which have been hammered into your thinking.
Most know that because most of the people debating with you were Catholics at one time just as you are.

But we/those people at sometime in the past actually began to read the Bible and allowed IT to speak to us instead of the Traditions of the RCC. Now when that happens, we can clearly understand that the Bible states that Christ purged our sins on the cross. Now IF you will open your Bible and read with me you will see in:

Hebrews 1:3...........
"When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS."

Romans 8:1..............
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Now of cour the real question that YOU or any other Catholic can not answer, among a host of others is .....Why didn't the Apostles discuss purgatory? There is not ONE SINGLE phrase or suggestion of such a place or process from any of the Apostles. WHY?????

Do YOU think that God forgot to tell them???? Do YOU think that ALL of them lost their laptops?
Do YOU think that they held a meeting and decided to ignore what God told them about Purgatory?

WHY does not ONE single apostle talk about or expand such a prominent doctrine????

NO, I do not think so and I do not think that you believe that either.

You see, when a believer dies he is immediately present with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says............
"To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

IMO, the correct exegesis of that verse is that the soul never dies.The body dies and goes to the ground, and it waits for the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-53..............
"Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all die but we shall all be changed, for this MORTAL (Body) must put on immortality".

It is the body that dies and it is the body that will be resurrected but the SOUL never dies as it goes to be with the Lord just as the Scriptures said in 1 Corth. 5:8.

YOU have your Bible open, read it for yourself my friend. The English word for "Resurrection" is the Greek word that means STAND UP!

Now having said all of that, please note and pay special attention to the BIBLE FACT that there is no mention here of having to spend time in purgatory anywhere in the Bible.

Again, please for your own sake and proper education in the Bible, open your Bible now to Luke 16. It is there that Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 reveals that there is a great gulf between paradise and torments. People cannot pass from one to the other.

You as a Catholics have been taught and now defend purgatory by quoting 2 Maccabees 12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry.

That my friend is one of the reasons why the books of the Apocrypha are rejected as they not only contradict the Bible, but also contradicts Catholic teaching, because idolatry is a mortal sin that would confine a person to hell. The Book of Maccabees has never been regarded as inspired by Jews or Christians.

 

[Major1]

Thanks . I have wrote my reply to you , with a challenge for myself . If you are willing we should move on . Good night and may God bless you . keep doing what your doing . You have my respect .

That is a wonderful encouragement. Do you think you could impress that on all the other Catholic believers here?

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

Good point. As I pointed out earlier this punishment was foreign even to the EOs. They looked at the Latin view of punishment for the forgiveness of sins as inconsistent. Their point was we are either forgiven or punished not both:

Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

The Orthodox Response to the Latin Doctrine of Purgatory

So much to refute . To be fare, how about not throwing thousand things at me at once to make your point and seem to be just trying to overwhelm me with words or several topics at once as if that proves your point . ( correct me if i am wrong Brother ) I think that is unfair .Please one subject at a time . I believe I have effectively addresses some of your statements below .

Salvation is a process and we can never be perfected in this life because we still sin .We are purified in purgatory which finises this process and are perfected .

When we die there is a process .This process is also a part of are earthly life, is not complete as scripture says in Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling or 1 Peter 9 - as you attain the goal of your faith salvation . This is also a future event Mt 10:22 Mt 10;22 -he who endures to the end will be saved . Nowhere in scripture are we are made perfect once if we continue to sin and soil ourselves The false notion of once saved always saved is not in scripture but what does scripture say about being saved

HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED

Its is a past event :
Rom 8:24- For in hope we were saved
Eph 2:25,8 - bu grace you have been saved by love
2 Tim 19 he saved us , called us , according to his grace
2 Tit 3:5 -he save us thru bath of rebirth, renewal by the holy spirit .

It is a present Process:
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation in fear and trembling (if your perfect he would not have said this )
1 Pet 1:19 as you attain your goal of you faith salvation

It is a future event:
Mt 1:22 he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:13 he who preserves to the end will be saved
M 8:35 whoever loses his life for my sake will be saved
Act 15;11 we shall be saved through the grace of God
Rom 5:9-10 since we are justified we will be saved
Rom 13:11 salvation is nearer now then first believed
1 Cor 3;15 he will be saved but only through fire
1 Cor 5:5 deliver the man to satan so his spirit may be saved


ARE WE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE OR FAITH PLUS GOOD WORKS- The Catholic Church teaches that Grace , Faith and Works work in unity like a three legged stool . Take one leg away and the chair falls . Therefore my works alone won't' save me , my faith alone won't save me ( " faith alone is not written scripture ) and God's Grace can save me . Even the thief on the cross spoke up ( works ) and acknowledge Christ ( Faith ) and then was saved by Grace . So get off your ass an cooperate with Gods Grace .


James 2 14-26 "What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?Can his faith save him?If a brother or sister has nothing to were and has no food for the day and one of you says to them go in peace and eat well,but you do not give them the necessities of of the body what good is it? So also faith of itself if it does not have works is dead . Indeed someone might say you faith , I have works .Demonstrate your faith to me without your works and I will demonstrate my faith from my works .You believe god is one .You do well.Even the demons believe that and tremble Do you want proof you ignoramus that faith without works is useless.Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac upon the alter .You see his faith was active along with his works and faith completed by works Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness and was called a friend of God .See how a person is Justified by works and not by faith alone . And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route. For just as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith with out works is dead "
Gal 5:6 only thing that counts is faith working through love
1 Cor 11-12 Faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:if you love me keep my commandments
Mt 16:16-17 if you wish to enter life keep the commandments.
Mt 2:21 not all those who say lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of my father
Mt 19;16-17 to have life keep the commandments
Rom 2:2-8 eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6 nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10 we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13 work out salvation with fear and trembling

WE ARE JUDGED BY OUR GOOD DEEDS

Rom 2:5-8 God will repay each man according to his works
2 Cor 5: 10 Recompense according to what they did in the body
2 Cor 11:15 their end will correspond to their deeds
1 Peter 1:17 God judges impartially according to one's works
Rev 20:12-13 dead judges according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 will receive due payment for whatever you do

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Mt 7:21 Not everyone who says Lord Lord will inherit
Mt 2413 Those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 workout your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 drive body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-13 those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 separated from Christ you have fallen from Grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 must hold out to the end to rein with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 describes ,sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 if you sin after receiving truth judgment remains

JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION

Reformers saw justification as a mere legal act by which God declares the sinner to be meriting heaven even though he remains in fact unjust and sinful. It is not real eradication of sin but a covering or non imputation . It is not a inner renewal and a and a real sanctification, only an external application of Christ justice . The Catholic Church understands Justification differently. It see it as a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal . The soul becomes objectively pleasing to God And so merits heaven. It merits heaven because it is actually good. Scripture conceives of the forgiveness of sins as real removal of them . The words are " Blot Out "( ps 50:3 ) "clears the way" Ps 102:12 " blot out( Is 43:24 )" takes away " ( Jn :29. The few times the Bible mention " covering sin" refer not to the forgiveness of sins by God , but to the forgiveness of one man's sins by another .Since we cant forgive one another's sins ( that is up to God ) the best we can do is overlook them or cover them according to fundamentalism notion ,but does not actually remove them.

On the positive side the Bible shows that justification is a rebirth . It is a generation of a supernatural life in a former sinner ( Jn 3:5;TiTus 3:5 ) a thorough inner renewal ( Eph 4:23 ) and real Sanctification ( 1 Cor 6:11 ) The soul itself become beautiful and holy , it can be admitted to heaven where nothing unclean is allowed .

Assurance of salvation as I have disproved above which Protestants believe , is wrong . There is no need for true reformation of character although to some extent that follows because the joy of being saved and the very real desire to live the kind of life one's fellow evangelicals lead . Being born again is easy there is no need for true examination of conscience and the past ceases to exist . ( no need to make a embassising confession )

Wilson Ewin book There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation says " the person who places his faith In the Lord Jesus Christ is eternally secure . He can never lose his salvation , No person breaking God's or man's laws or commandments can nullify that status ." He in fact confuses redemption and salvation .The truth is we were all redeemed Christians , Muslims ,Jews... BUT our Salvation is conditional .

True sinful conduct lessen one fellowship with Christ . and some evangelicals will go as far as to say that one can indeed lose salvation through later sin . If a sinner continues in his sin as before , he loses salvation, which is assured only so long as his repentance manifests itself in a reformed life .This is close to the Catholic position and is grounded in Hebrews 10:26;

" if we go on sinning wilfully , when once the full knowledge of truth has been granted to us we have no further sacrifice for sin to look forward to ;nothing but a terrible expectation of judgement, a fire that will eagerly consume the rebellious "

Evangelicals believe in the majority that no sin can undo salvation and they afferm the saved man will not in fact commit any great sin .The avoid admitting the free man is , in a way free to sin as he wishes because the insist he will not wish to sin as he once did .Tthey conclude that as saints they will be just let into heaven . ( once saved always saved )

The NT teaches us that genuine assurance is possible , but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance when Jesus declared " not everyone who says to me " Lord Lord " shall enter the kingdom of Heaven '( Mt 7: 21 ) but one can find true assurance first you must accept the finished work of Christ, acknowledge your sin ( Rom 3:23, 6:23 ) and recognize the inability to save yourself ( eph 2:8,9 ), place your trust in Jesus as your savior ( Acts 16: 13 ) having done that your salvation is real .

However I have shared scriptures above that call absolute insurance into question . " I buffet my body and make it my slave or I who have preached to others may myself be rejected as worthless " ( 1 Cor 9:27.( the race is not finished as you read further ). Phil 2:12 " beloved you have always show yourself obedient and now that I am at a distance not less but much more then I am present you must work to earn your salvation in anxious fear " or other translations " work out you salvation in fear and trembling trembling " Pil 2:12. . another scripture is " all of us have scrutiny to undergo before Christ judgement seat for each reap what his mortal life has earned good or ill according to his deeds " ( 2 Cor 5: 10 ) and God " will reward to every man what his acts have deserved " ( Rom 2:6 ) the Apostial notes " there is graciousness then , then in God and also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away ,his graciousness is for thee, only so long as though continue in his grace, if not tho too shalt be pruned away " ( Rom 11:22 ) Paul wrote this to people who were already "saved" and in a state of "grace" -a grace they could lose .

As a Catholic I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling ." With hopeful confidence, but not with a false assurance, and i do this as the Church has taught , unchanged from the time of Christ .

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

That is a wonderful encouragement. Do you think you could impress that on all the other Catholic believers here?

I hope I can , we can all take this stuff to personally at times

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

It really does not help your cause my friend. We all know that you and every other Catholic believer are doing due diligence by parroting Catholic teachings which have been hammered into your thinking.
Most know that because most of the people debating with you were Catholics at one time just as you are.

But we/those people at sometime in the past actually began to read the Bible and allowed IT to speak to us instead of the Traditions of the RCC. Now when that happens, we can clearly understand that the Bible states that Christ purged our sins on the cross. Now IF you will open your Bible and read with me you will see in:

Hebrews 1:3...........
"When He had by Himself PURGED OUR SINS."

Romans 8:1..............
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."

Now of cour the real question that YOU or any other Catholic can not answer, among a host of others is .....Why didn't the Apostles discuss purgatory? There is not ONE SINGLE phrase or suggestion of such a place or process from any of the Apostles. WHY?????

Do YOU think that God forgot to tell them???? Do YOU think that ALL of them lost their laptops?
Do YOU think that they held a meeting and decided to ignore what God told them about Purgatory?

WHY does not ONE single apostle talk about or expand such a prominent doctrine????

NO, I do not think so and I do not think that you believe that either.

You see, when a believer dies he is immediately present with Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:8 says............
"To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

IMO, the correct exegesis of that verse is that the soul never dies.The body dies and goes to the ground, and it waits for the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:51-53..............
"Behold I show you a mystery, we shall not all die but we shall all be changed, for this MORTAL (Body) must put on immortality".

It is the body that dies and it is the body that will be resurrected but the SOUL never dies as it goes to be with the Lord just as the Scriptures said in 1 Corth. 5:8.

YOU have your Bible open, read it for yourself my friend. The English word for "Resurrection" is the Greek word that means STAND UP!

Now having said all of that, please note and pay special attention to the BIBLE FACT that there is no mention here of having to spend time in purgatory anywhere in the Bible.

Again, please for your own sake and proper education in the Bible, open your Bible now to Luke 16. It is there that Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 reveals that there is a great gulf between paradise and torments. People cannot pass from one to the other.

You as a Catholics have been taught and now defend purgatory by quoting 2 Maccabees 12:40-46 where a "sin offering" is offered for dead soldiers who had committed the sin of idolatry.

That my friend is one of the reasons why the books of the Apocrypha are rejected as they not only contradict the Bible, but also contradicts Catholic teaching, because idolatry is a mortal sin that would confine a person to hell. The Book of Maccabees has never been regarded as inspired by Jews or Christians.

Read my above quote . We will just be going in circles , i agreed with you to move on .

 

[Darrel Slugoski]

I don't think you will get much argument from Protestants, Reformed nor Evangelicals here on the early councils which addressed Orthodox Christology. You will find most of us, yours truly too, to be ardent defenders of the Trinitarian faith and fierce defenders of the Deity of Christ.

It is my hope that in such threads where posters take heretical positions we can get more Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox involved.

We do have much in common. Yes let have more O and C on here

 

[redleghunter]

So much to refute . To be fare, how about not throwing thousand things at me at once to make your point and seem to be just trying to overwhelm me with words or several topics at once as if that proves your point . ( correct me if i am wrong Brother ) I think that is unfair .Please one subject at a time . I believe I have effectively addresses some of your statements below .

I did try to keep it at purgatory but you did ask a lot of other questions and I tried to address them all.

 

[redleghunter]

Salvation is a process and we can never be perfected in this life because we still sin .

We can start here if you want as everything else flows from the above.

Is it our perfection which gains the Kingdom of God, or the Perfection of Jesus Christ?

 

[Major1]

We can start here if you want as everything else flows from the above.

Is it our perfection which gains the Kingdom of God, or the Perfection of Jesus Christ?

Oh Oh Oh Oh......I know this one.....call on me!

 

[Major1]

So much to refute . To be fare, how about not throwing thousand things at me at once to make your point and seem to be just trying to overwhelm me with words or several topics at once as if that proves your point . ( correct me if i am wrong Brother ) I think that is unfair .Please one subject at a time . I believe I have effectively addresses some of your statements below .

Salvation is a process and we can never be perfected in this life because we still sin .We are purified in purgatory which finises this process and are perfected .

When we die there is a process .This process is also a part of are earthly life, is not complete as scripture says in Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling or 1 Peter 9 - as you attain the goal of your faith salvation . This is also a future event Mt 10:22 Mt 10;22 -he who endures to the end will be saved . Nowhere in scripture are we are made perfect once if we continue to sin and soil ourselves The false notion of once saved always saved is not in scripture but what does scripture say about being saved

HAVE YOU BEEN SAVED

Its is a past event :
Rom 8:24- For in hope we were saved
Eph 2:25,8 - bu grace you have been saved by love
2 Tim 19 he saved us , called us , according to his grace
2 Tit 3:5 -he save us thru bath of rebirth, renewal by the holy spirit .

It is a present Process:
Phil 2:12 work out your salvation in fear and trembling (if your perfect he would not have said this )
1 Pet 1:19 as you attain your goal of you faith salvation

It is a future event:
Mt 1:22 he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:13 he who preserves to the end will be saved
M 8:35 whoever loses his life for my sake will be saved
Act 15;11 we shall be saved through the grace of God
Rom 5:9-10 since we are justified we will be saved
Rom 13:11 salvation is nearer now then first believed
1 Cor 3;15 he will be saved but only through fire
1 Cor 5:5 deliver the man to satan so his spirit may be saved


ARE WE SAVED BY FAITH ALONE OR FAITH PLUS GOOD WORKS- The Catholic Church teaches that Grace , Faith and Works work in unity like a three legged stool . Take one leg away and the chair falls . Therefore my works alone won't' save me , my faith alone won't save me ( " faith alone is not written scripture ) and God's Grace can save me . Even the thief on the cross spoke up ( works ) and acknowledge Christ ( Faith ) and then was saved by Grace . So get off your ass an cooperate with Gods Grace .


James 2 14-26 "What good is it my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?Can his faith save him?If a brother or sister has nothing to were and has no food for the day and one of you says to them go in peace and eat well,but you do not give them the necessities of of the body what good is it? So also faith of itself if it does not have works is dead . Indeed someone might say you faith , I have works .Demonstrate your faith to me without your works and I will demonstrate my faith from my works .You believe god is one .You do well.Even the demons believe that and tremble Do you want proof you ignoramus that faith without works is useless.Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac upon the alter .You see his faith was active along with his works and faith completed by works Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness and was called a friend of God .See how a person is Justified by works and not by faith alone . And in the same way was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route. For just as the body without a spirit is dead, so also faith with out works is dead "
Gal 5:6 only thing that counts is faith working through love
1 Cor 11-12 Faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:if you love me keep my commandments
Mt 16:16-17 if you wish to enter life keep the commandments.
Mt 2:21 not all those who say lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will of my father
Mt 19;16-17 to have life keep the commandments
Rom 2:2-8 eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6 nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10 we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13 work out salvation with fear and trembling

WE ARE JUDGED BY OUR GOOD DEEDS

Rom 2:5-8 God will repay each man according to his works
2 Cor 5: 10 Recompense according to what they did in the body
2 Cor 11:15 their end will correspond to their deeds
1 Peter 1:17 God judges impartially according to one's works
Rev 20:12-13 dead judges according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 will receive due payment for whatever you do

ASSURANCE OF SALVATION

Mt 7:21 Not everyone who says Lord Lord will inherit
Mt 2413 Those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 workout your salvation in fear and trembling
1 Cor 9:27 drive body for fear of being disqualified
1 Cor 10:11-13 those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 separated from Christ you have fallen from Grace
2 Tim 2:11-13 must hold out to the end to rein with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 describes ,sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 if you sin after receiving truth judgment remains

JUSTIFICATION AND SANCTIFICATION

Reformers saw justification as a mere legal act by which God declares the sinner to be meriting heaven even though he remains in fact unjust and sinful. It is not real eradication of sin but a covering or non imputation . It is not a inner renewal and a and a real sanctification, only an external application of Christ justice . The Catholic Church understands Justification differently. It see it as a true eradication of sin and a true sanctification and renewal . The soul becomes objectively pleasing to God And so merits heaven. It merits heaven because it is actually good. Scripture conceives of the forgiveness of sins as real removal of them . The words are " Blot Out "( ps 50:3 ) "clears the way" Ps 102:12 " blot out( Is 43:24 )" takes away " ( Jn :29. The few times the Bible mention " covering sin" refer not to the forgiveness of sins by God , but to the forgiveness of one man's sins by another .Since we cant forgive one another's sins ( that is up to God ) the best we can do is overlook them or cover them according to fundamentalism notion ,but does not actually remove them.

On the positive side the Bible shows that justification is a rebirth . It is a generation of a supernatural life in a former sinner ( Jn 3:5;TiTus 3:5 ) a thorough inner renewal ( Eph 4:23 ) and real Sanctification ( 1 Cor 6:11 ) The soul itself become beautiful and holy , it can be admitted to heaven where nothing unclean is allowed .

Assurance of salvation as I have disproved above which Protestants believe , is wrong . There is no need for true reformation of character although to some extent that follows because the joy of being saved and the very real desire to live the kind of life one's fellow evangelicals lead . Being born again is easy there is no need for true examination of conscience and the past ceases to exist . ( no need to make a embassising confession )

Wilson Ewin book There Is Therefore Now No Condemnation says " the person who places his faith In the Lord Jesus Christ is eternally secure . He can never lose his salvation , No person breaking God's or man's laws or commandments can nullify that status ." He in fact confuses redemption and salvation .The truth is we were all redeemed Christians , Muslims ,Jews... BUT our Salvation is conditional .

True sinful conduct lessen one fellowship with Christ . and some evangelicals will go as far as to say that one can indeed lose salvation through later sin . If a sinner continues in his sin as before , he loses salvation, which is assured only so long as his repentance manifests itself in a reformed life .This is close to the Catholic position and is grounded in Hebrews 10:26;

" if we go on sinning wilfully , when once the full knowledge of truth has been granted to us we have no further sacrifice for sin to look forward to ;nothing but a terrible expectation of judgement, a fire that will eagerly consume the rebellious "

Evangelicals believe in the majority that no sin can undo salvation and they afferm the saved man will not in fact commit any great sin .The avoid admitting the free man is , in a way free to sin as he wishes because the insist he will not wish to sin as he once did .Tthey conclude that as saints they will be just let into heaven . ( once saved always saved )

The NT teaches us that genuine assurance is possible , but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance when Jesus declared " not everyone who says to me " Lord Lord " shall enter the kingdom of Heaven '( Mt 7: 21 ) but one can find true assurance first you must accept the finished work of Christ, acknowledge your sin ( Rom 3:23, 6:23 ) and recognize the inability to save yourself ( eph 2:8,9 ), place your trust in Jesus as your savior ( Acts 16: 13 ) having done that your salvation is real .

However I have shared scriptures above that call absolute insurance into question . " I buffet my body and make it my slave or I who have preached to others may myself be rejected as worthless " ( 1 Cor 9:27.( the race is not finished as you read further ). Phil 2:12 " beloved you have always show yourself obedient and now that I am at a distance not less but much more then I am present you must work to earn your salvation in anxious fear " or other translations " work out you salvation in fear and trembling trembling " Pil 2:12. . another scripture is " all of us have scrutiny to undergo before Christ judgement seat for each reap what his mortal life has earned good or ill according to his deeds " ( 2 Cor 5: 10 ) and God " will reward to every man what his acts have deserved " ( Rom 2:6 ) the Apostial notes " there is graciousness then , then in God and also severity. His severity is for those who have fallen away ,his graciousness is for thee, only so long as though continue in his grace, if not tho too shalt be pruned away " ( Rom 11:22 ) Paul wrote this to people who were already "saved" and in a state of "grace" -a grace they could lose .

As a Catholic I am redeemed and like the Apostle Paul I am "working out my salvation in fear and trembling ." With hopeful confidence, but not with a false assurance, and i do this as the Church has taught , unchanged from the time of Christ .

Your entire thesis is hanging of this comment..............
"Salvation is a process and we can never be perfected in this life because we still sin .We are purified in purgatory which finises this process and are perfected."

Of course that is RCC dogma and is not Biblical. What then does the Bible say???

Ephesians 1:13–14
"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are ..........".

You do not seem to have an understanding of the theological word of "SANCIFICATION".

Your theology is Biblically flawed because you are including the process of sanctification in your understanding. We are saved at the moment we believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ just as the Scriptures say, and then the process of SANTIFICATION is the life long work of the Holy Spirit counseling us to adjust our behavior to be conformed to the image and likeness of Jesus.

It begins after salvation, and will not be complete until we’re in the presence of God.

I know that you will not understand that so allow me to post another Bible Scriptures which speaks clearly to this process in Hebrews 10:14 as it distinguishes between the two...........

“By one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”

Having been made perfect forever in God’s eyes means that our salvation’s a done deal. It’s in the past tense. We are now in the process of being made holy (sanctification).
It’s in the present tense, ongoing.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Again Jews , Catholics , Orthodox pray for their dead ( you seem to be denying that we do this practice of praying for the dead ) The Orthodox deny the doctrine of Purgatory but they do believe in a purification process called Toll Houses .Toll Houses is taught by the Orthodox Church . Purgatory is taught by the Catholic Church . And Jews still pray fr their dead ( Jewish services which I have attended ).

Which is your problem, not ours, for we are to make all Truth claims subject to testing by Scripture, as noble souls even did for apostolic preaching, (Acts 17:11) and thus Purgatory is to be rejected. However, you appeal is to tradition, yet different conclusions are held on what it teaches.

►The Orthodox Church opposes the Roman doctrines of universal papal jurisdiction, papal infallibility, purgatory, and the Immaculate Conception precisely because they are untraditional." - Orthodox apologist and author Clark Carlton: THE WAY: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church, 1997, p 135.


►Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church.. — Death, the Threshold to Eternal Life - Liturgy & Worship - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America


►The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory (a place of purging), that is, the inter-mediate state after death in which the souls of the saved (those who have not received temporal punishment for their sins) are purified of all taint preparatory to entering into Heaven, where every soul is perfect and fit to see God.


Also, the Orthodox Church does not believe in indulgences as remissions from purgatoral punishment. Both purgatory and indulgences are inter-corrolated theories, unwitnessed in the Bible or in the Ancient Church, and when they were enforced and applied they brought about evil practices at the expense of the prevailing Truths of the Church. If Almighty God in His merciful loving-kindness changes the dreadful situation of the sinner, it is unknown to the Church of Christ. The Church lived for fifteen hundred years without such a theory. — Death, the Threshold to Eternal Life - Liturgy & Worship - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
►Despite the high honor and the highest admiration which the Orthodox Church bestows upon the Virgin Mary Theotokos, it does not teach either her immaculate conception or her bodily assumption into the heavens.,

The west, in altering the Creed without consulting the east, is guilty (as Khomiakov put it) of moral fratricide, of a sin against the unity of the Church. In the second place, most Orthodox believe the Filioque to be theologically untrue. They hold that the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, and consider it a heresy to say that He proceeds from the Son as well...

Up to 850, Rome and the east avoided an open conflict over the Papal claims, but the divergence of views was not the less serious for being partially concealed. — http://www.stpaulsirvine.org/html/TheGreatSchism.htm

►Within a reintegrated Christendom the bishop of Rome will be considered primus inter pares serving the unity of God's Church in love. He cannot be accepted as set up over the Church as a ruler whose diakonia is conceived through legalistic categories of power of jurisdiction. His authority must be understood, not according to standards of earthly authority and domination, but according to terms of loving ministry and humble service (Matt. 20:25 27).- Papal Primacy - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

►In the Nicene Creed of faith our Church is described as the "One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church": "One" because there can only be one true Church with one head Who is Christ... Each of these titles is limiting in some respects, since they define Christians belonging to particular historical or regional Churches of the Orthodox communion..

►Then there are those who attempt to join together all Christian religions into one faith. They would be horrified at the idea of a service with Hindus and Christians celebrating together, yet they do not bat an eyelash at the idea of Orthodox celebrating with Roman Catholics, who with no authority broke off from the Church close to a thousand years ago. — Against Ecumenism

►Roman Catholicism, unable to show a continuity of faith and in order to justify new doctrine, erected in the last century, a theory of "doctrinal development." Following the philosophical spirit of the time (and the lead of Cardinal Henry Newman), Roman Catholic theologians began to define and teach the idea that Christ only gave us an "original deposit" of faith, a "seed," which grew and matured through the centuries...

On this basis, theories such as the dogmas of "papal infallibility" and "the immaculate conception" of the Virgin Mary (about which we will say more) are justifiably presented to the Faithful as necessary to their salvation. - ORTHODOXY AND ROMAN CATHOLICISM

►There is nothing Orthodox about the charismatic movement. It is incompatible with Orthodoxy, in that it justifies itself only by perverting the message of the Fathers, suggesting that the Church of Christ needs renewal, and indulging in the theological imagery of, Pentecostal cultism. With such things, one cannot be too bold in his language of condemnation and reprobation. - http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/charmov.aspx

►Vladimir Lossky, a noted modern Eastern Orthodox theologian, argues the difference in East and West is due to the Roman Catholic Church's use of pagan metaphysical philosophy (and its outgrowth, scholasticism) rather than the mystical, actual experience of God called theoria, to validate the theological dogmas of Roman Catholic Christianity. For this reason, Lossky argues that the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics have become "different men".[18] Other Eastern Orthodox theologians such as John Romanides[19] and Metropolitan Hierotheos[20][21] say the same,

► [From a RC:] Few Catholics realize that Eastern Orthodoxy, especially as represented by Palamite theology, represents a systematic and comprehensive attack upon Catholic doctrine. Catholic and Orthodox theology are not only in opposition to one another in their understanding of God (theology), but also in the various disciplines of philosophy – in Cosmology, Psychology, Epistemology, Metaphysics, Theodicy, and Ethics. They posit radically different views of God, of man, and of the relationship between God and His creation... Over the past 2,000 years there have been many heresies, schisms, and systems of thought comprehensively opposed to Catholicism. But none has carried the potential threat for corruption of all of Catholic dogma which Eastern Orthodoxy represents. — http://www.waragainstbeing.com/partiii

Meanwhile, 2Mac 12 testifies to a later and novel declension in Judaism:

Traveling in Egypt around 50 s.c., Diodorus of Sicily was struck by the funerary customs: "As soon as the casket containing the corpse is placed on the bark, the survivors call upon the infernal gods and beseech them to admit the soul to the place received for pious men. The crowd adds its own cheers, together with pleas that the deceased be allowed to enjoy eternal life in Hades, in the society of the good."

"The passage cited earlier from the Second Book of Maccabees, which was composed by an Alexandrian Jew during the half-century preceding Diodorus's journey, should no doubt be seen against this background." It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. - The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46 , transcribed using http://www.onlineocr.net, emp. mine