Me? Because I grew up in the church, it happened differently for me than for an adult convert. Basically I repeatedly accepted Jesus to the degree I could at the maturity level that I was at. At age three I loved Jesus and thought the church was a good place to be. At age seven I had an idea of what choosing wrong was, and that Jesus wanted me to choose right. The two paths in life. I wanted to be the way Jesus wanted me to be. So I responded to an altar call. When I was twelve, I "rededicated" my life to Christ, understanding that he had died for my sins, and that I needed to accept his grace by faith. When I was eighteen, the HS convicted me, and I understood that being a Christian meant more than just attending Church and praying and reading the Bible. It meant doing unto the least of these my brethren. I wanted to be God's fully without compromise. When I was 22, I realized that I needed to be obedient to God even when I didn't understand the reason why he asked something of me. So, even though I thought Baptism was a silly ritual, I was baptized. When I was 27, I realized that loving Christ meant loving His Church, and I became Catholic. For the remainder of my life, I have sought to examine my walk and my conscience, looking for ways I can draw closer to Christ and avail myself of his grace.
The issue is deep: "What happened to the Apostolic Faith of Christ in the West under the Latin Watch?"Is that actually what is taught in Eastern Orthodox circles?
I do realize how important it is to you to make those Scriptures say what you want them to say.
What you have done is classic my friend.
You are working hard to say that water baptism is necessary for our salvation.
The answer is, however, no, it does not.
In order to make those Scriptures teach that baptism is required for salvation, you must go beyond what the verse actually says. What those verses do teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).
This verse is composed of two basic statements.
1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
2—He who does not believe will be condemned.
I do not know how God could have said that to make it more understandable.
While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized.
In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz...........
“He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.
Taking people at their word is a good thing to do...Outstanding testimony.
I would only question the age of 3 and 7.
That is very young to understand sin and its ramifications
but
it is not up to me to challenge you
and I am not doing that at all.
I have but shown what they do say...
May it be so! NO INNOVATIONS I say!!
I have never used YOUR added term: "Water Baptism"... So with that habit of mind in your reading skills, I do not know how to craft words that can penetrate your fog here...
So does this mean that you DENY that we are Baptized INTO Christ???
Mark 16:16...........
“He who believes AND is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned”.
Mar 16:16
ο πιστευσας και βαπτισθεις σωθησεται
He (who is) believing and (has been) baptized will be saved
ο δε απιστησας κατακριθησεται
but he (who is) unbelieving will be condemned.
You do the same with Scripture as you do with me...
You are ignoring the word AND
Plus the past tense of the passive participle: having been BAPTIZED
The verse states THIS:
1 - The one believing AND having been baptized will be saved
2 - The one NOT believing will be condemned...
This means a couple of things:
One needs to be believing AND baptised...
Without believing the Gospel, one will not be baptized...
After baptism, one must continue believing...
Baptism is necessary for Salvation...
Believing is needed for Salvation...
Not believing brings condemnation...
Both before and after Baptism...
So which part of "...AND having been BAPTIZED..." is giving you trouble here?
I could not agree more!
This proves that Baptism is necessary for Salvation in your own words...
Fallacy of the false alternative...
The verse states that Baptism is necessary, and that believing is also necessary... Baptism alone without ongoing believing will not save those who stop believing AFTER they have been baptized...
Baptism is the given in this passage, not believing...
Cornelius and his party were filled with the Holy Spirit in their believing and THEN they were Baptized into Christ... Similarly so, though differently, with Paul...
Condemnation is a function of sin, not of lack of believing, except for those who have been baptized into Christ, and then go back to unbelief... Paul wrote of this in Hebrews:
Heb 6:3-6
And this will we do, if God permit.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly Gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
and the Powers of the world to come,
These are those Baptized INTO Christ, you see...
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
And this renewal means another Baptism...
Arsenios
I have but shown what they do say...
May it be so! NO INNOVATIONS I say!!
I have never used YOUR added term: "Water Baptism"... So with that habit of mind in your reading skills, I do not know how to craft words that can penetrate your fog here...
So does this mean that you DENY that we are Baptized INTO Christ???
Mark 16:16...........
“He who believes AND is baptized will be saved;
but he who does not believe will be condemned”.
Mar 16:16
ο πιστευσας και βαπτισθεις σωθησεται
He (who is) believing and (has been) baptized will be saved
ο δε απιστησας κατακριθησεται
but he (who is) unbelieving will be condemned.
You do the same with Scripture as you do with me...
You are ignoring the word AND
Plus the past tense of the passive participle: having been BAPTIZED
The verse states THIS:
1 - The one believing AND having been baptized will be saved
2 - The one NOT believing will be condemned...
This means a couple of things:
One needs to be believing AND baptised...
Without believing the Gospel, one will not be baptized...
After baptism, one must continue believing...
Baptism is necessary for Salvation...
Believing is needed for Salvation...
Not believing brings condemnation...
Both before and after Baptism...
So which part of "...AND having been BAPTIZED..." is giving you trouble here?
I could not agree more!
This proves that Baptism is necessary for Salvation in your own words...
Fallacy of the false alternative...
The verse states that Baptism is necessary, and that believing is also necessary... Baptism alone without ongoing believing will not save those who stop believing AFTER they have been baptized...
Baptism is the given in this passage, not believing...
Cornelius and his party were filled with the Holy Spirit in their believing and THEN they were Baptized into Christ... Similarly so, though differently, with Paul...
Condemnation is a function of sin, not of lack of believing, except for those who have been baptized into Christ, and then go back to unbelief... Paul wrote of this in Hebrews:
Heb 6:3-6
And this will we do, if God permit.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly Gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
And have tasted the good Word of God,
and the Powers of the world to come,
These are those Baptized INTO Christ, you see...
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
And this renewal means another Baptism...
Arsenios
Most likely a simple mistake.I have NO idea why YOU addressed this response to me. My comment was addressed to Darrel Slugoslci not you in post #820.
Once again, most likely a simple mistake.You just said.............
"I have never used YOUR added term: "Water Baptism"... So with that habit of mind in your reading skills, I do not know how to craft words that can penetrate your fog here..."
Since the post was not directed to you why did you feel the need to say........
"I have never used YOUR added term".
It's not as if he has a monopoly on insulting posts...I never said you did my friend and your comment is aggressive, inflammatory and insulting.
I do realize how important it is to you to make those Scriptures say what you want them to say. What you have done is classic my friend.
I have NO idea why YOU addressed this response to me. My comment was addressed to Darrel Slugoslci not you in post #820.
You just said.............
"I have never used YOUR added term: "Water Baptism"... So with that habit of mind in your reading skills, I do not know how to craft words that can penetrate your fog here..."
Since the post was not directed to you why did you feel the need to say........
"I have never used YOUR added term".
I never said you did my friend and your comment is aggressive, inflammatory and insulting.
Church I ask your forgiveness .On behalf of my Church .The issue is deep: "What happened to the Apostolic Faith of Christ in the West under the Latin Watch?"
- Rome WAS Orthodox for the first thousand years...
- And She went off the rails and the Orthodox Faith was persecuted out of existence under Her...
- And She persecuted the Eastern Communion that did not submit to Her never existent "rulership" of the earthly Church...
- She attacked, looted, and left Constantinople so weakened that the Roman Empire there soon fell to the Turks and the Church came under the persecutions of that Great Captivity... (4th Crusade)
- She USED that weakening and the threat of the Turks plus imposed captivity and maltreatment of the Orthodox Delegates to the Council of Florence to IMPOSE Her false authority upon the Ecumenical Patriarchate located there
- And in the west, shortly after, She gave birth against Her will to the Reformation through the abuse of power in the world that She then possessed...
It is a big deal - I call it the Great Saga of How the West was Lost...
Arsenios
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?