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So let me ask you, what do you think is "the sinner's prayer" to which you keep referring?I agree with these statements that is the belief part, in Believe and be Baptised . It is still not the sinners prayer, it is just telling us our belief save us . Just like Peter says the the action of Baptism 1 peter 3:21 " Baptism now saves us ." They go together .
It also says in scripture Mt 10:22 " he who endures to the end will be saved . So scripture teaches we must also endure to the end to be saved . It also says " not all those who say Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the ones who do the will of my father ."There are a number of thing we must do to be saved it starts with belief and baptism but it does not end there. Still the apostles did not make anyone say a sinners prayer in scripture.Asked and answered, literally in the post you quoted.
The 'sinner's prayer' is not a doctrine, to the best of my understanding. Anyway, is there a single church anywhere that teaches that a word-for-word recitation of the 'sinner's prayer' is necessary for salvation? If not, there is no comparison to dogmas required in the RCC on the basis of Holy Tradition.
Show me one single church that lists a verbatim "sinner's prayer" that is required to be said for salvation. And, go...Sure the sinners prayer is a evangelical doctrine which is believed must be said to be saved .
Show me one single church that lists a verbatim "sinner's prayer" that is required to be said for salvation. And, go...
We are saved by grace through faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Please tell me you don't need scriptural references for that.So in your opinion what formula does your church use to require a person to be saved in your church and show me in the bible were it is .
Now we're making progress.You are right when you say there is no pervatim[sic] sinners prayer...
See, this is the problem. Churchs don't define the terms of salvation, God does. And God reveals that to us in His word. If you are attending a church that says, "XYZ is what the church says is required for salvation" then you are attending a church that preaches from something other than the Bible. In which case it's probably time to leave, like a lot of us did, and find a church that puts the word of God above the words of men....but each church will define guidelines or doctrine regarding what it takes to be saved. Each church has its own traditions or guidelines it follows regarding this issue of how to be saved . Tell me yours .
Ok we will start with Purgatory .We know the word Trinity is not used in the Bible yet most Christians believe in the doctrine as defined in the early Councils . Where is purgatory in the Bible . it is in 1 Cor 3:10-15 .'"according to the commission of God given to me, like a skilled builder i laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. for no other foundation can any one lay then that which is laid,which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold , silver, precious stones ,wood , hay ,stubble-each mans work will become manifest;for that Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives he will receive a reward.If any man's work is burnt up he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."
This fire is what we call purgatory . Each Christian will experience this at the Day on the day of their death weather they believe it or not .
Early Christian Bishops confirm this Tertullian ad 211 " we offer sacrifices for the dead on their birthday.... ( OT Jews to this day pray for there dead as Jesus would have participated each year as it was Jewish practice ) St Augustine 419 ad " temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only , by some after death by some both hear and hear after....." . St Augustine 419 " that there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible and can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden weather some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater good or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire."I can quote many early Church Fathers ( just Google them)
Scripture makes it clear "nothing unclean shall enter it."Rev 21:27 . We are purified by this fire . Jesus said " for everyone will be salted with fire" mark 9:49. In Isaiah 6:1-7 we see a glimpse of how a sinful man is purified by fire . We see this process of purification before man enters heaven . " He will be saved (future tense),but only passing though fire". in Hebrews 12:22-23 says that as one approaches Gods presence in heaven he encounters angels as well as the "spirits of just men made perfect".
Just as the Church had the authority to define the Trinity doctrines using scripture it also has the the authority to define these scriptures relating to the "fire" and its meaning . The early Church believed this until today .
I will deal with the volley of issues taken at me, one at a time. Off to family Christmas gathering God bless .
You are correct there are limited scriptures for this so the Bible implies these teachings . Just as there are no scriptures for altar calls , saying the sinner's prayer or even accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior .(which I don't disagree with ) these things are not in scripture .But you do the same thing and say Scripture implies this . So please hold me to the same standard .
Ok lets start with the sinless Mary . Both Adam and Eve were created sinless so it is not an impossibility for him. Christ is the second Adam, Rom 5:14,and took the flesh from Mary .. The Ark of the Covenant carried the Word of God and Mary carried in her womb the Word of God in her flesh . Gabriel greet Mary by saying " Hail full of Grace , the Lord is with thee."which is a translation is Greek word Kecharitomene . On the other hand another greek word " full of grace" which was used for Christ in John 1:14 and stephen Acts 6:8 was the word Pleres Charitos. Scripture says she was "highly favored " which is the Greek work Charis .Charis is to be looked on as looked upon as favored but a transformation of this favor or Grace.Kecharitomene indicates perfection of Grace which indicates was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her conception .. The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was by grace and privilege of God in view of the merits of Jesus Christ to preserve her from original sin .Mary did require a savior but by special intervention was preserved therefore redeemed by the Grace of Christ by anticipation . Mary called her self lowly Lk 1:48 which mean she was humble .This doctrine was defined by Pope Pius in 1854 .dogmas are defined formally when there is controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the Magisterium think the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some existing belief .
The Assumption is the fact that Mary did not die .We see in the OT Enoch " walked with God and he was seen no more" Gen 5:25 .He was translated so not to see death Heb 11:15. Then there was Elijah who was taken up to heaven in a fiery chariot 2 Kings 2:1-13. The Bible does not say what happened to Mary. Pope Pius exercise papal infallibility that after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into heave. You are correct that their is no scriptural proof .the possibility of a bodily assumption before the Second coming is referenced in 1 Cor 15:23 and Math 27:52-53.In the Early Church each Church would include the tombs of the apostles yet no Church claims her remains .
Mary as the mother of God is another issue .The early church there was a heresy of Nestorianism where the bishop Nestorian in 429 said that Mary was the Mother of Christ but not the Mother of God . Protestant shrink from the Catholic Statement that God was born of Mary . To acknowledge the Theotokos ( God bearer) is to believe in God the Son made man . Some evangelicals object to " Mother of God which honors Mary too much . It is easy for them to fall into Nestorianism who held that the union of the two natures of christ was little more a moral union of two distinct persons , the divine son and the human Jesus . Or as my friend put it Mary only gave birth to the human Jesus , but not acknowledging that Jesus was full human and fully God even at his conception . However scripture states ; Lk 1:43 "Elizabeth calls her the mother of my Lord" Mt 1:23 Vergin to bare a son="God is with us". Lk 1:35 The child will be called the holy,the Son of God Gal4:4 God sent his son ,born of a woman.
I will include scripture were saints and angels have been venerated or honored . Jos 5:14 Joshua fell prostrate before a angle, Dan 8:17 Daniel fell prostrate in terror before Gabriel , Tob 12:16 Tobit fell prostrate before a angel . It did not mean they were worshiping them . We honor Saints as examples to all of us and who are part of the body of Christ . While the Bible does not explicitly refer to the veneration and invocation of saints there there is scriptural warrant as I stated in scripture above .The veneration of Angles is predicated on their supernatural dignity , which comes from their union with God (Mt 18:10)Since the saints are also united with God( 1 Cor 13:12;1 John 3:2) it follows they are also worthy of veneration .The ancient Jews believed in the intercession of saints Judas Maccabaeus saw how 2 deceased men , the high priest Onias and the profit Jeremiah intercede with God for the Jews 2 Macc 15:11-16. And Jeremiah himself wrote that Moses and Samuel made intercession for the Jews after their deaths . We learn that the angels and saints place the prayers of the holy on earth at God's feet tob 12:12;Rev 5:8,8:3 . The verses also mean apparently that the angels and saints are the ones prayed to and they take these prays to God . Lazarus is seen in Abraham's bosom , Dives was asking him to intercede for him across the unbridgeable abyss then why should we not be able to pray to the Saints across an abyss they have successfully crossed over . Yes we can go to God ,but we can ask each other to pray for each other (interceed) and ask saints as well . I have a whole army behind me.We also have the early Church documents and the early Church fathers to support these practices .
The rosary is not in scripture and your issue would be that we engage in " vain repetition". Scripture shows Jesus repeating his pray 3 times Mat 26:39,42,44 . I Psalm 136 is repetitious . The "vain repetition" in scripture .was a a warning to pagans that their prayers vere vain because the gods they believed in did not exist.it is true that Jesus was warning us of mechanical ,mindless,repetitive prayer mantras , because they cheap imitations of from the heart prayers.He wasn't condemning the repetition of prayer all together . Jesus taught us to to pray the Our Father, but not the Our Father only . However there are many forms of prayer such as; the rosary, meditation , praying the psalms, open prayer.
Lastly I would like to deal with Mary's perpetual virginity , which Martin Luther , John calvin and Ulrich Zwingli believed in . Martin Luther said "When Matthew 1:25 says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth a son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary ,it means that he never did know her." Other scriptures include Lk 1:34 " How can this be I don't know man". Lk 2:41-51 age 12 jesus evidently the only son of Mary. In Mt 13:55-56 Brothers James, Joseph ,Simon and Jude, scripture shows that in mt 13:55-56 Mary the wife of Clopas is the mother of James and Joseph . In John 19:26 Mary is entrusted to John not a younger sibling as was the custom. Jn 7:3-4 it was not custom for younger brother to advise a elder brother .( they were cousins and in the Ariamic which Jesus spoke the word cousin was also referred to as Brothers and sisters ) In addition when I call you a brother that doesn't mean I am your biological brother as they called each other in scripture. Now referring to Mat 1:2" Joseph knew her not until she bore first born". John Calvin said " and besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the fist born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the Gospel writer is praying regard to precedence." . You can google these Protestant reformers or the early Church Fathers regarding this subject, you will be surprised .
Show me exactly were it says I must " accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior " its not in scripture . I dont disagree with that statement as an idea .but it is not stated in scripture .
I say amen to those references but show me your sinners prayer in the Bible and and were its prescribed.
FOCUS my brother!
We are discussing "Doctrine".
The Alter Call is not a doctrine.
The sinners prayer is not a doctrine.
Accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior is not doctrine.
Purgatory IS a RCC doctrine, but it is not found in the Bible.
The sinlessness of Mary is doctrine by the RCC, but it is not found in the Bible.
The assumption of Mary is doctrine by the RCC but it is not found in the Bible.
There are NO Bible Scriptures which you can post to verify to show RCC teachings my friend.....NONE!
YOU are welcome to belive them all you want but you can not ever prove them Biblically.
Reread my past posts on purgatory .Now that you opened the Purgatory can of worms, perhaps you can define it better for us.
Some Catholics (for centuries actually) believed and taught that Purgatory is a definite place, like heaven or hell, where a Christian endured torment and punishment to pay for their temporal sins. Others (more recently) insist that purgation is not a place and does not entail time in any sense, but is a refreshing process in which one's temporal sins are washed away prior to entering heaven.
Which is it?
It is actually found in the verse right after the one that says...."Pray the ROSARY".
God actually gave man common sense and the ability to read and understand through the help of the Holy Spirit.
Actually I have always thought that it was the easiet thing I ever learned in theology.
Acts 16:30...........
Sirs, what must I do to be saved"?.
Acts 16:31............
Paul and Silas responded, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"..
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