Catholics and Orthodox

[Matrona]

Really? They actually believe in the existance of the Easter Bunny? That's quite odd.

Well, the Orthodox Christians who embrace belief in the Easter Bunny tend to be of rather short stature and rarely of advanced age.

Matrona, I've gone over this in the past with an Orthodox poster, the fact of the matter is, several Orthodox Metropolitans have clearly stated that Toll Houses can be found as a part of Orthodox Tradition, and as such are a part of your article of faith.

NYJ, I did take it upon myself to look for that alleged mention of toll-houses in the Matins canon that you brought up before. I personally have been to more Matins services than most Orthodox Christians attend in 20 years, and I have never heard any mention of toll-houses. I asked priest after priest, who have done Matins every day of the week. They all said no. Finally, I flipped through the Liturgikon one weekend just to check. NOTHING ABOUT TOLLHOUSES. They are not in our liturgical texts, and they are not in any catechism of canonical Orthodoxy I've ever heard of, ergo they are not part of Orthodox doctrine.

Now, if you wish to argue with an Orthodox Metropolitan, be my guest, just don't do it here

I'll be pleased to, if you would kindly tell me who these mysterious metropolitans are.

After all, when St. Athanasius was only a deacon, he was called to defend Orthodoxy against heretical Arian bishops.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Some Orthodox believe in the Easter Bunny. Does that make the Easter Bunny an article of our faith?

Matrona

LOL

But in all honesty, there is a big difference between the toll houses and the eater bunny . . many orhtodox orthodox have held to the toll houses . . (there is another name for them, but it escapes me right now) . .

I really don't know why the toll houses bring such animosty to the surface . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Oblio]

the eater bunny

That comes at Pascha
The Eater bunny is the patron Saint of those who fast

 

[nyj]

I'll be pleased to, if you would kindly tell me who these mysterious metropolitans are.

Metropolitan Macarius of Moscow

Toll houses have also been mentioned by: St John of Damascus and Fr. Seraphim Rose, so obviously these people believe in the possibility of toll houses. Do you think that perhaps they believe in the Easter Bunny as well?

 

[Oblio]

I don't want to derail this, but could those Metropolitans be schismatics (ROAC, GOC) ? As we have seen elsewhere, anyone can use the title Orthodox and not be in communion with The Orthodox Church

 

[Matrona]

Matrona

LOL

But in all honesty, there is a big difference between the toll houses and the eater bunny . . many orhtodox orthodox have held to the toll houses . . (there is another name for them, but it escapes me right now) . .

I really don't know why the toll houses bring such animosty to the surface . . .

I'm really sorry if I start to get snippy when toll houses are brought up. How does it make you feel when people continually accuse you of worshipping Mary even though you know good and well that you don't? And I know that people making charges that Mary was not ever-virgin makes both of us furious.

The Orthodox who do believe in toll houses are typically not your garden variety Orthodox--they're more likely to be part of a sect that is not in communion with us but still calls itself Orthodox. We don't like being confused with these sects because their heretical teachings can make us look bad. Hence, many of us itch to prove that we don't believe in toll-houses, or at least that it is more or less an optional belief, not a matter of salvation in and of itself.

 

[Oblio]

Simulpost

 

[II Paradox II]

NYJ, I did take it upon myself to look for that alleged mention of toll-houses in the Matins canon that you brought up before. I personally have been to more Matins services than most Orthodox Christians attend in 20 years, and I have never heard any mention of toll-houses. I asked priest after priest, who have done Matins every day of the week.

What is a toll-house? I take it that it is a sort of Orthodox purgatory, but I have never heard the term before...

ken

 

[nyj]

...could those Metropolitans...

For the record, I said Metropolitan. Singular.

Now, if you want to call St. John of Damascus a schismatic or heretic... well, that's your call.

 

[nyj]

The Orthodox who do believe in toll houses are typically not your garden variety Orthodox--they're more likely to be part of a sect that is not in communion with us but still calls itself Orthodox. We don't like being confused with these sects because their heretical teachings can make us look bad. Hence, many of us itch to prove that we don't believe in toll-houses, or at least that it is more or less an optional belief, not a matter of salvation in and of itself.

There is at least one member of the Orthodox forum who has professed a belief in toll-houses. You commune with them on a daily basis, I would daresay you'd never refer to them as a heretic.

I think you must face the facts that there are orthodox Orthodox who believe that the existance of Toll Houses are a possibility. That this seemingly brings you closer to the Catholic notion of purgatory, and potential unification on this issue, is something you need to learn to deal with.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, the Orthodox Christians who embrace belief in the Easter Bunny tend to be of rather short stature and rarely of advanced age.


NYJ, I did take it upon myself to look for that alleged mention of toll-houses in the Matins canon that you brought up before. I personally have been to more Matins services than most Orthodox Christians attend in 20 years, and I have never heard any mention of toll-houses. I asked priest after priest, who have done Matins every day of the week. They all said no. Finally, I flipped through the Liturgikon one weekend just to check. NOTHING ABOUT TOLLHOUSES. They are not in our liturgical texts, and they are not in any catechism of canonical Orthodoxy I've ever heard of, ergo they are not part of Orthodox doctrine.


I'll be pleased to, if you would kindly tell me who these mysterious metropolitans are.

After all, when St. Athanasius was only a deacon, he was called to defend Orthodoxy against heretical Arian bishops.

Matrona

Is this not a valid quote?

(St. Ephriam the Syrian, Collected Works (in Russian), Moscow, 1882, vol. 3, pp. 282-385.)

4. "O Virgin, in the hour of my death rescue me from the hand of the demons, and the judgment, and the accusation, and the frightful testing, and the bitter toll-houses and the fierce prince, and the eternal condemnation, O Mother of God." (Tone 4, Friday, 8th Canticle of the Canon at Matins.)

Peace in Him!

 

[Lotar]

What is a toll-house? I take it that it is a sort of Orthodox purgatory, but I have never heard the term before...

ken

Toll houses are the belief that daemons will try to tempt Christians away from salvation, on their way to heaven. So there are different toll houses that a Christian will have to pass, at which each one he/she will be tempted.

 

[Oblio]

For the record, I said Metropolitan. Singular.

Now, if you want to call St. John of Damascus a schismatic or heretic... well, that's your call.

Matrona, I've gone over this in the past with an Orthodox poster, the fact of the matter is, several Orthodox Metropolitans have clearly stated that Toll Houses can be found as a part of Orthodox Tradition, and as such are a part of your article of faith. Now, if you wish to argue with an Orthodox Metropolitan, be my guest, just don't do it here.

Did St. John define it as part of our faith, remembering that individual Orthodox, Saints though they may be, do not define our faith.

 

[Matrona]

Metropolitan Macarius of Moscow

Toll houses have also been mentioned by: St John of Damascus and Fr. Seraphim Rose, so obviously these people believe in the possibility of toll houses. Do you think that perhaps they believe in the Easter Bunny as well?

I will look up Metropolitan Macarius.

St. John's supposed endorsement of the belief in toll houses is debatable, to say the least.

I have my own opinions on the writings of Seraphim Rose. Common opinion seems to be that some of his writings are quite good, but others are... well, out there. And that only those firmly grounded in orthodoxy should attempt to read his writings.

One needs to know what precious gems look like, before we can climb down into the dark mine and attempt to discern them from their worthless surroundings.

 

[ChoirDir]

NYJ
Again the points you bring up would stir a debate. Let's just let it drop.
On the issue of what's a toll-house, ummm chocklate chip cookies?

 

[Photini]

I don't want to derail this, but could those Metropolitans be schismatics (ROAC, GOC) ? As we have seen elsewhere, anyone can use the title Orthodox and not be in communion with The Orthodox Church

Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos Vlachos also speaks of a similar thing...the taxing of souls...in his book Life After Death. There is an exerpt of this book on www.pelagia.org

 

[Oblio]

Again the points you bring up would stir a debate. Let's just let it drop.

Once again, I wish we had an Apostolic Discussion forum. For the most part, this has been a charitable 'discussion' that has segued to toll-houses, but debate is clearly not allowed and we should respect that as CD suggested,

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Metropolitan Macarius of Moscow

Toll houses have also been mentioned by: St John of Damascus and Fr. Seraphim Rose, so obviously these people believe in the possibility of toll houses. Do you think that perhaps they believe in the Easter Bunny as well?

From what I have heard, the Blessed Hieromonk Seraphim Rose only touches on the issue of toll houses to point out some of the thoughts of a few Saints of the Church. Nothing more deep than that.

 

[Photini]

Toll houses are the belief that daemons will try to tempt Christians away from salvation, on their way to heaven. So there are different toll houses that a Christian will have to pass, at which each one he/she will be tempted.

As I've understood it, it is more of a struggle between your Guardian Angel and the demons that are bringing accusations against you by bringing up all your sins during your life to trouble your conscience, so that you will be condemned by your conscience.

 

[nyj]

NYJ
Again the points you bring up would stir a debate. Let's just let it drop.

ChoirDir, this is the OBOB forum. I am a Catholic. Because of things (inaccurate for starts and dangerous to the faith due to faulty logic as well) you wrote, I replied. What I write only stirs up a debate if you and other Orthodox posters post in a debateable manner. If you wish to avoid a debate, don't do it.