Catholics and Orthodox

[nyj]

From what I have heard, the Blessed Hieromonk Seraphim Rose only touches on the issue of toll houses to point out some of the thoughts of a few Saints of the Church. Nothing more deep than that.

Of course, the fact of the matter is, he touches on it! If it were never a notion that was ever entertained, if it were never a notion with the possibility of being Orthodox belief, he wouldn't have mentioned it. Correct?

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Of course, the fact of the matter is, he touches on it! If it were never a notion that was ever entertained, if it were never a notion with the possibility of being Orthodox belief, he wouldn't have mentioned it. Correct?

You are quite correct.

 

[Matrona]

For the record, I said Metropolitan. Singular.

No you didn't.

"several Orthodox Metropolitans have clearly stated that Toll Houses can be found as a part of Orthodox Tradition"

 

[nyj]

No you didn't.

I stand corrected. In that same post, I said the following:

Now, if you wish to argue with an Orthodox Metropolitan, be my guest, just don't do it here.

I got ahead of myself (thinking of the Metropolitan of Moscow, St. John of Damascus and Fr. Seraphim Rose, all of the Orthodox faith) when I referred to several Orthodox Metropolitans.

PS: Can you lose the snotty attitude please?

 

[Matrona]

Matrona

Is this not a valid quote?

As I said before: I've been to more Matins services in my short time as an Orthodox Christian, than most Orthodox go to in twenty years. I have chanted with the choir and I have more than a passing familiarity with the canons of Matins. And I've never heard that or anything like it.

I also asked several Orthodox priests about the same thing. One informed me that the 8th canticle always has to do with the youths in the furnace... never with anything even resembling a teaching on tollhouses.

Finally, one weekend, I picked up the Liturgikon to settle this once and for all... and saw nothing, anywhere, having anything remotely to do with tollhouses.

Therefore, I can only conclude from the evidence before me that that is not a valid quote.

One priest suggested that perhaps it is a tollhouse devotee's reworking of the Friday Matins canon.

 

[II Paradox II]

As I've understood it, it is more of a struggle between your Guardian Angel and the demons that are bringing accusations against you by bringing up all your sins during your life to trouble your conscience, so that you will be condemned by your conscience.

thanks for your's and Lotar's explanation.

ken

 

[Matrona]

Of course, the fact of the matter is, he touches on it! If it were never a notion that was ever entertained, if it were never a notion with the possibility of being Orthodox belief, he wouldn't have mentioned it. Correct?

No one is denying that some Orthodox do embrace the belief in tollhouses. The point of contention is in whether or not it is an article of faith for us. I think we have made it clear that it's not an article of faith for us at all. One of the priests I consulted on the issue told me that despite having been a priest for over 30 years, he had not heard of tollhouses until some 15 years before. If tollhouses were really that important to the Orthodox faith... wouldn't he have learned of their supposed existence a little bit sooner?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Here is a very interesting discussion regarding toll houses, purgatory, and how the east and west approach the matter of the soul after death . .

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5164/purg2.htm


Peace in Him!

 

[Markh]

yes, very interesting

 

[thereselittleflower]

Here is a writing of St. John Maximovitch of the EOC

Regarding toll houses, etc . .

"A description of the first 40 days after death."

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_life_after_death.htm



Here is information about this saint of the Eastern Orthodox Church

http://www.stherman.com/presshistory/stjohnmaximovitch.htm


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Matrona . . but is it not splitting hairs here? As an article of faith, you are referring to dogma, correct? But not everything believed by either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox are set down as dogma . . yet those things that are not set down as dogma are still free to be believed . . and there is a great deal of historical evidence for the belief in the toll houses within the EOC . . just because it is not required, does not mean it is has not been rightly believed . .


Peace in Him!

 

[KennySe]

What are the differences between Catholics and Othodox?

The visible Catholic Church is less of a democracy, in that all members do not have equal voice.
We have unity under the Chair of Peter. The Pope is the successor of Saint Peter, and he holds the keys that Jesus gave to Peter.

Our universal beliefs are summarized in the ONE "The Catechism of the Catholic Church".

***

And so, as an example, the Catholic Church teaches that there IS a purgatory, a purgatorial cleansing fire.

If any member wants to say that this is bunk, then he/she is not in full communion with the Catholic Church, and is free to leave.

You see, it is EASY to leave the Catholic Church.

One can reject a few of the Catholic beliefs and pretendone is still a member. A group of like-minded persons could form "The Old Catholic Church", which rejects the authority of the Pope. Such a group, despite their name, is NOT Catholic.

 

[nyj]

No one is denying that some Orthodox do embrace the belief in tollhouses.

Of course earlier you implied that they were either quacks or heretics.

The point of contention is in whether or not it is an article of faith for us.

It may not be an article of faith, but neither is it something that Orthodox can deny as not being, potentially, an orthodox belief. Belief in Toll Houses, as far as I can tell, are not condemned by the Orthodox, which means belief in them is allowed. It also happens to be a belief that is held only by, if not solely than by a majority, Orthodox believers. In addition, it crops up enough to make me believe that this isn't just some rare, random phenomenon (believers in Toll Houses), but rather sustains a healthy, even if minor, adherence within the bosom of Orthodoxy.

That you would adamantly deny that any Orthodox believer, in their right mind, could believe in Toll Houses, when it's obvious that there are many, sane and sensible members of Orthodoxy who do, simply amazes me.

If tollhouses were really that important to the Orthodox faith... wouldn't he have learned of their supposed existence a little bit sooner?

Or perhaps, he slept during that particular class in his formation days in seminary.

 

[Markh]

yes, purgatory is a cleansing fire. Toll Houses seem fairly wierd compared to this. I understand very well why purgatory would and does exist, this idea of Toll Houses just doesn't make any similar sense.

 

[thereselittleflower]

MATRONA: If tollhouses were really that important to the Orthodox faith... wouldn't he have learned of their supposed existence a little bit sooner?

NYJ: Or perhaps, he slept during that particular class in his formation days in seminary.

I think that what you learn in seminary, both Eastern Orthodox and Catholic, depends on where you go to seminary . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Photini]

In addition, it crops up enough to make me believe that this isn't just some rare, random phenomenon (believers in Toll Houses), but rather sustains a healthy, even if minor, adherence within the bosom of Orthodoxy.

You are correct NYJ. And you will find that the ones with the strongest adherance and understanding of the taxing of souls, are the monastics.
It is unlikely to be made dogma, because belief or disbelief in it has no bearing on the salvation of the soul.

BTW, on one of the links theresa posted...it is interesting how many of the Saints who spoke of this belief were pre-schism

 

[BAChristian]

Do you think that perhaps they believe in the Easter Bunny as well?

I don't know...I kinda believe in the Easter Bunny...

You mean... ...there isn't one?

Seriously?