Catholics and ALLAH

[PaladinValer]

No. Come on, as a catholic you should recognize the differences. I think you just like being argumenative.

You don't know Catholicism then...

 

[Yekcidmij]

You don't know Catholicism then...

Then does catholicism teach that muslims and christians worship the same God?

I submit that Muslims worship a different god though I think it's possible they use the same name.


Would you also say that Gnostics, Montanists, Arianists, Moromons, JW's, David Koresh..etc.. worship the same Jesus or a different Jesus with the same name?

 

[PaladinValer]

Then does catholicism teach that muslims and christians worship the same God?

Why do they not? All the reasons given so far are akin to Marcionism.

I submit that Muslims worship a different god though I think it's possible they use the same name.

What evidence can you give that isn't Marcionistic?

Examples of Marcionistic evidence include (but are not necessarily limited to):

1. God is characterized differently in the Qur'an
2. God isn't Trinitarian

Would you also say that Gnostics, Montanists, Arianists, Moromons, JW's, David Koresh..etc.. worship the same Jesus or a different Jesus with the same name?

Yes they do; they got the theology wrong however.

How about that Presbyterian minister who murdered the abortion doctors a few years back. He was a Trinitarian...did he worship however a different deity? Your raising of "David Koresh" is therefore sensationalist.

Do Jews worship a different God? Did Moses? Did Elijah? Did St. John the Baptist? Did Adam? Did David? Did Solomon? Did Zachariah? Did Esther? Did Judith? Did Sarah? Did Tobit? No Trinity believed in...not even the inkling of it. Did God somehow create and then decided to pass "new knowledge" through Jesus to people, being completely absent until then? Heaven forbid. The only conclusion then is that Jews do worship the same deity. So why not Muslims? Don't give me because He's characterized differently...He's got an extremely similar "bloodthirsty" character in the Tanakh as He does in the Qur'an.

 

[simonthezealot]

In a mutual conciliatory gesture, how about if, in parts of the world where the dominate culture refers the Almighty as "Allah" folks continue to refer to him as Allah.
In parts of the world where "God" is the common usage, monotheists refer to him as God. Sound like a plan?

So far it seems Christians are doing their part. Doesn't sound to me like the change needs to happen on the Christian side of the aisle.

 

[Oblio]

Good idea stz, I would append this to include the use of the term Theos and Bog (pronounced with a 'o' as in mow).

Thusly:

... and In parts of the world where "Theos and Bog" is the common usage, monotheists also refer to him as Theos and Bog.

Append as necessary to include the rest of Christiandom.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Why do they not? All the reasons given so far are akin to Marcionism.

So do you think Islam is very akin to a Christian heresy?

What evidence can you give that isn't Marcionistic?

Didn't Marcionists reject the OT because they thought that the God in the OT was things like genocidal, incosistent, and wrathful? Is this the same reason Islam rejects the OT? Or does Islam reject the OT because they believe that Ishmael received the promise instead of Isaac, which has nothing to do with Marcionism? Does Islam even reject the OT? I'm only so-so with Islamic theology.

Yes they do; they got the theology wrong however.

Does having a wrong theology imply that you are worshiping a different or a wrong diety?

What would be the implications on salvation if Muslims have just a wrong theology?

How much theology needs to be correct?

 

[PaladinValer]

So do you think Islam is very akin to a Christian heresy?

To some. I disagree with them however, though some of the roots of Islam are found in both orthodox and heretical Christianity.

It is its own religion.

Didn't Marcionists reject the OT because they thought that the God in the OT was things like genocidal, incosistent, and wrathful?

That's a major part of it. Do you see now why the Allah=/=God by Divine Character argument isn't acceptable to orthodox Christianity?

Is this the same reason Islam rejects the OT?

I don't know what you've been told, but Islam accepts the Tanakh as Scripture. To surprise you even more, they accept the New Testament also.

Their matter of interpretation is different. Just because they interpret both differently doesn't mean they reject the books; they simply reject our (the orthodox) interpretation of them.

Or does Islam reject the OT because they believe that Ishmael received the promise instead of Isaac, which has nothing to do with Marcionism? Does Islam even reject the OT? I'm only so-so with Islamic theology.

See my above. They accept both the OT and the NT. They would simply say that we've misinterpreted them and injected our own interpretations into them.

Does having a wrong theology imply that you are worshiping a different or a wrong diety?

You're not a Catholic. Do Catholics worship the same God as you? To be Protestant as you are means that you must believe that we Catholics have incorrect theological beliefs and practices. By your implied implication here, that means that we don't worship the same God as you do. And similarly, you would therefore expect us to think Protestants worship a different deity than we Catholics do.

Do you agree or not agree?

What would be the implications on salvation if Muslims have just a wrong theology?

I don't know what you've been told, but whenever has Christianity ever stated that salvation was closed? I would suggest picking up St. Justin the Philosopher and Martyr and read what the Ante-Nicene Fathers really believed about salvation outside their religion.

Grace is a gift and it is a gift found in many ways. The surest ways are the Seven Sacraments, although it is by no means limited to them. Truth in itself is a grace. Doing selfless deeds in cooperation with the Holy Spirit is a means of grace, for it heals the soul and purifies the nature. Even by reading the Bible, reciting a rosary or prayer rope, kissing an icon, or listening to a sermon can be a means of grace.

Muslims hold to a great many truths. Their orthodox (=/=conservative or fundamentalist) beliefs and practices contain many truths and virtues. They do not possess them all, but they possess elements. To deny this is to deny them in Christianity. Muslims do therefore have elements of grace within, but they also have a great many obsticles as well.

So can they be saved? Yes. Will they? I'm not God and nor are you. We are not righteous enough; we are not holy enough. Neither do we have the Divine authority or grace to pass such judgment. We've even been told by Jesus in the Holy Canon not to judge least we judge ourselves in our hypocracy or incorrect judgment. Imagine saying to someone that they're going to hell only to find out that God was merciful to that person in the End and then turns to you, remembering that you condemned that person. God is therefore going to send you to experience hell if this senario were to unfold!

That's the terrible danger that lies in playing God. I don't know anyone's eternal fate, least of all my own. What I do know is that my religion contains the wholness of truth and thus the wholeness of grace. Anything that shares in those truths would therefore have elements of the wholness of grace logically. Islam definitely fits that bill. Yet if I cannot know if I'm going to endure to the end, who the heck am I to know whether a person of another religion, Islam besides, will make it? I have my own obsticles, however reduced they are since I am Christian, that I must deal with. Do those obsticles mean that I'm doomed too? Different obsticles, yet obsticles nonetheless.

How much theology needs to be correct?

What is the root of Hinduism? It isn't Abrahamic. What of Animism? Not Abrahamic. How about Shinto? Unless the aliens that helped build the pyramids flew Abraham to Japan, they aren't Abrahamic either!

There are three great Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. One could include the Druze and the Samarians too. These, and perhaps one or two others that escape me at the moment, have historical ties with the faith of Abraham. Their theologies are roughly similar and their practices are roughly the same. Their God is the same, as they all claim the Abrahamic faith and can historically tie themselves to it.

 

[mont974x4]

http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.au/allah_god.html

The link is to an interesting article on the issue of whether allah is God.

 

[Yekcidmij]

http://biblicalstudies.qldwide.net.au/allah_god.html

The link is to an interesting article on the issue of whether allah is God.

Right out of the gate:

If this were so, one would expect to find Allah written in the Bible. But this is not the case, not once is Allah written in the Word of God.

"God" was not written in the bible either since English wasn't the original language.

 

[PaladinValer]

That website has bad argumentation and incorrect history.

Just because Islam wasn't around until 622 Allah wasn't around. Fine; by that logic, Christianity is worthless too since Christ wasn't around until 4 bce. And Judaism is false too; Hinduism predates Judaism by over a millennium.

Can you provide a more academically-honest source?

 

[mont974x4]

Right out of the gate:



"God" was not written in the bible either since English wasn't the original language.

And upon deeper study of His many names in their original languages was allah ever found? Nope. Is God an accurate translation of any of those original names?


What about the other evidence presented in the article?

 

[mont974x4]

for the sake of discussion, knowing that allah is the name used by a false religion, even if it IS an accurate translation, should we use it?

 

[mont974x4]

http://www.letusreason.org/Islam6.htm

another insteresting article on the issue

 

[Oblio]

for the sake of discussion, knowing that allah is the name used by a false religion, even if it IS an accurate translation, should we use it?

The English terms/names 'Father, God, and Jesus' also fit the above test.

 

[Oblio]

What would you have Arabic Christians use for the word God ?

Would it be permisable for someone (in another culture) to tell or suggest to us that we not use the term God because it is used by pagans ?

 

[mont974x4]

Do they? I was not aware that they lend their names to false religions.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

for the sake of discussion, knowing that allah is the name used by a false religion, even if it IS an accurate translation, should we use it?

Hi. I would say we believe EVERY other religion is False except for Christ-ianity. Why just pick on Islam?

And don't forget, they also believe in the "virgin birth" and "second coming" of Jesus so they are closer to Christianity than even Judaism and other religions.
Muhammad did a commentary on our Bible just as many Christian theologians have over the century. Perhaps Christ-ians aren't doing a very good job at explaining YHWH and His Christ of the Bible to them?.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Haggar 2:6 That thus He says, YHWH of Hosts: Yet one little, she, And I am quaking the heavens and the land, And the sea, and the dry-area, 7 And I quake All of the nations, and they come, desired of all of the nations. And I fill the House, the-this, honour says YHWH of Hosts.

Hebrew 12:25 Be ye looking! Not ye should be refusing Him the One speaking, for if those not escaped on land refusing the One reprising [who was divinely speaking]--much less we, the ones, the One from heaven turning from.
26 Whose the voice the land shakes then, now yet hath He has promised, saying, `Still once--I shall be quaking not only the land, but also the heaven;'
27 The yet still once--is making evident the being shaken after-placements, as having those been made, that should be remaining the those not being shaken;
28 Wherefore a Kingdom unshakable receiving, we may be having grace, through which we may serve well pleasingly to the God with reverence and dread;
29 for also the God of us a consuming fire.

 

[mont974x4]

Islam is only being "picked on" here because that is the subject of the thread.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Islam is only being "picked on" here because that is the subject of the thread.

Hi. Of course.
The best way to learn about Islam is to go to the NCR board and discuss it directly with them as I and others have and do.
But it is difficult when you have a myriad of different denominations debating as each one brings different views and doctrines and thus confuse not only the muslims, but others that are watching.
Besides, muslims can be fun to debate with LOL.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5926741-muslims-agree-or-disagree.html

anatolian
Veteran
26

This is really a complex ,very detailed issue probably he gives the details but the islamic sovereignty is what Quran and Sunnah teachs..no need to say anything against that.Conquer the world ,if it is needed to be with the sword let it be, if the agreements are enough(at least for a while) let it be by this way.

sur
Regular Member
27

Brother with all due respect,i would disagree.

Prophet Muhammad(p) never fought anyone unless they impose fight or commit oppression/tumult etc.

I don't think Islam supports invasion of any peaceful country. Even if they were ur enemies previously:-
[Quran:8:61] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth all things

 

[Thekla]

The translation of the Bible into Syriac (peshitta) also uses (a spelling variation ?) of Allah. The Syriac translation of the Bible (4th c at least) predates any English translation.