Catholicism

Indent

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Did people of faith get it wrong until Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?

It's not quite what Evangelicals would claim - as Evangelicalism is, allegedly, the best iteration/version of the faith - but the wholesale condemnation of Catholics seems curious to me.

There are a lot of people that think Catholics aren't Christian, so tell me, what are we to make of Christian history?
 
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let's just say if one believes the bible to be the final binding authority on faith and practice for the church, you're gonna have a lot of questions about rome's catholicism.

I suppose that's so.

I do, however, think Sola Scriptura and Biblical inerrancy are not just problematic, but often lead people to be unfaith to the texts. When it comes to cultural understandings of inerrancy (by and large most Christians), it often communicates little more than "I want my views/interpretation to be taken as inerrant."
 
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Widlast

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When Protestants of whatever flavor speak of their hatred for the Roman Catholic Church it brings to mind only one thing:
Mark 13:13 You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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I do, however, think Sola Scriptura and Biblical inerrancy are not just problematic, but often lead people to be unfaith to the texts.

only when one's exegesis and hermeneutics prove to be logically and textually inconsistent.
 
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Indent

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only when one's exegesis and hermeneutics prove to be logically and textually inconsistent.

well most of the so-called "Biblical" Christians I know prefer this "plain reading" nonsense, which is not exegesis. It's a hermeneutic in itself, however.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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well most of the so-called "Biblical" Christians I know prefer this "plain reading" nonsense, which is not exegesis. It's a hermeneutic in itself, however.
wouldn't know what you mean by "plain reading"?
 
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~Anastasia~

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Did people of faith get it wrong until Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?

It's not quite what Evangelicals would claim - as Evangelicalism is, allegedly, the best iteration/version of the faith - but the wholesale condemnation of Catholics seems curious to me.

There are a lot of people that think Catholics aren't Christian, so tell me, what are we to make of Christian history?

You mention Catholics, the Reformers, and Evangelicals. Orthodox are missing from your list. :)

I risk stepping on toes, but I will be as kind as possible and ask forgiveness from my Catholic and Protestant brothers and sisters in advance. We already know we have some disagreements with one another over doctrine.

Christ founded the Church. One Church. Of course, being made up of imperfect people, problems crept in. Errors of doctrine, pride, folks not getting along. We read of it in the Scriptures - it is nothing new. Thank God that He helps us and has patience with us. :)

Compared to today, there were relatively fewer departures in doctrine. Heretics did arise, but the Church pointed out their error, and there was a very high degree of agreement on doctrine and practice, compared to what we see today. Sometimes fierce disputes arose over what many Christians would see as a very minor point of doctrine, but the fact that they could be so mportant to them then serves to highlight the relative level of agreement.

Ok, fast forward. The Church was under the leadership of five cooperating and separate leaders. Rome was one of these five. Historically, the five were equal in authority, none of them ruling over the others, but Rome began to consider their position to have ultimate authority, which the other four rejected on the grounds that it had always been a shared responsibility.

Rome broke away, mostly over this, but some other issues as well, and the Catholics in communion with Rome was born as a separate body. The other four make up the body that persists today as the Orthodox Church (though with more leaders now because Christianity has spread to other nations).

Orthodoxy continues, basically, on its own timeline from there, with minor blips in relationships with other communions.

We believe divided authority and faithfulness to what was handed down from the Apostles maintains the Church essentially unchanged.

Rome now was a very influential body, under the guidance of a single Pope. Problem being, from our point of view, that means no protection from errors if the Pope introduces them. And from our point of view, Popes did. Such things as indulgences, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, created grace, merits, Papal Infallibility, and ways of looking at sin (more juridical, division of venial and mortal, and related changes, along with guilt incurred through Original Sin, necessary temporal punishment of sin, etc.). Catholicism, from our point of view, changed greatly.

I think the Reformers were right to recognize that some errors were creeping into Catholicism. But honestly, they had lost the context the Church once had in order to interpret the faith. As a result, they made many good calls on what needed to be changed, but also made a few mistakes, because they were looking at Christianity already changed. In many ways though, the Reformers moved closer to Orthodoxy.

Evangelicals made further changes to the Reformers. The problem for them is that they had lost all of the early context. I do credit that their hearts were in the right place. And they often continue to be very steadfast and zealous.

The Catholics, meanwhile, to their credit have improved upon some of their earlier changes and moved back to a more historic understanding. However, I know many Catholics are not happy about reforms to the service itself, and they are not protected from progressive reforms if a pope decides to implement them.

What I don't quite understand is that Evangelicals are often taught a warped version of Catholicism, and then taught to oppose that version. I understand why they are opposed to some of the things they are told Catholics represent, but Catholics do not always believe what everyone thinks they believe? It's rather odd ... I suspect that misunderstandings and/or resentment contribute here and there.

I would just advise, if you want answers about a particular question, ask the ones who actually teach it. And also be aware that in most denominations or theological groupings, not everyone who subscribes to it will believe the same. If you get someone on the end of the spectrum of whatever belief, you can come away with a very wrong idea of what a denomination teaches.

And if this thread should become argumentative, you might like to ask other questions in Traditional Theology.

Hope that helps some, at least from our point of view. And please forgive me if I've offended anyone.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Did people of faith get it wrong until Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?

It's not quite what Evangelicals would claim - as Evangelicalism is, allegedly, the best iteration/version of the faith - but the wholesale condemnation of Catholics seems curious to me.

There are a lot of people that think Catholics aren't Christian, so tell me, what are we to make of Christian history?

Others got it right before Luther:

Jesus
Paul
Augustine
 
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Paul Yohannan

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Did people of faith get it wrong until Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?

It's not quite what Evangelicals would claim - as Evangelicalism is, allegedly, the best iteration/version of the faith - but the wholesale condemnation of Catholics seems curious to me.

There are a lot of people that think Catholics aren't Christian, so tell me, what are we to make of Christian history?

If anyone thinks Catholics are not Christian they must also deny the Christianity of Orthodox, Anglicans and Lutherans, and if they do that, they have just denied the Christianity of most Christians living today, and also the majority of victims of Islamist and Communist persecution since 1900.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I grew up revering Luther as a hero in my Evangelical and Pentecostal upbringing, but I was in my early 20's when I finally actually learned anything about him. In just about every way what I had heard or been told about Martin Luther was wrong; and in the years since, especially since crossing the Rhine, that this is a common problem I've seen within Protestantism, broadly.

So, yeah, if one were to say that Catholics aren't Christian, that in fact is to say that Luther isn't a Christian either, and the entire Reformation is meaningless. The Reformation wasn't about breaking communion with Rome; the breach in communion with Rome is a bad thing, not a good thing. Luther stands within the context of a continued history of Catholic Christianity in the West, not a departure from it, or the beginning of something new. Thus to condemn the history of Catholic Christianity of the first 1,500 years is to condemn Luther and condemn the Reformation. That's the true irony in praising Luther while accusing Catholics of not being Christian.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Thursday

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Did people of faith get it wrong until Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?

It's not quite what Evangelicals would claim - as Evangelicalism is, allegedly, the best iteration/version of the faith - but the wholesale condemnation of Catholics seems curious to me.

There are a lot of people that think Catholics aren't Christian, so tell me, what are we to make of Christian history?

You are asking dangerous questions. You could find yourself in the Catholic Church. That's what happened to me, God be praised!
 
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RC1970

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"...For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.” ~ John 18:37

Christianity is not about institutions, denominations or cliques, it's about individuals who are "of the truth".
 
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~Anastasia~

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I grew up revering Luther as a hero in my Evangelical and Pentecostal upbringing, but I was in my early 20's when I finally actually learned anything about him. In just about every way what I had heard or been told about Martin Luther was wrong; and in the years since, especially since crossing the Rhine, that this is a common problem I've seen within Protestantism, broadly.

So, yeah, if one were to say that Catholics aren't Christian, that in fact is to say that Luther isn't a Christian either, and the entire Reformation is meaningless. The Reformation wasn't about breaking communion with Rome; the breach in communion with Rome is a bad thing, not a good thing. Luther stands within the context of a continued history of Catholic Christianity in the West, not a departure from it, or the beginning of something new. Thus to condemn the history of Catholic Christianity of the first 1,500 years is to condemn Luther and condemn the Reformation. That's the true irony in praising Luther while accusing Catholics of not being Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes, when I got tired of the shallowness of the denominations we had been attending, and found some real substance, I hoped to bring my husband with me. During my searching, he visited one Lutheran and one Anglican parish with me - once each. Both were rejected for being "Catholic" (his real hang-up). Sadly, he actually refuses to discuss with me because he's afraid I will make sense and change his mind. I admire his steadfastness, but very much regret that it is misplaced.

The truly ironic thing is that his beliefs are actually about 90% Orthodox, and he doesn't attend either evangelical or reformed churches either.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Did people of faith get it wrong 'after' Martin Luther and his contemporaries picked up the pen?
Without even knowing who is right, that much is obviously true even to an outsider.

If A, B, and C are all necessarily contradictory beliefs, and are variously held, logic tells you that at least two of those groups must be wrong.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Yes, when I got tired of the shallowness of the denominations we had been attending, and found some real substance, I hoped to bring my husband with me. During my searching, he visited one Lutheran and one Anglican parish with me - once each. Both were rejected for being "Catholic" (his real hang-up). Sadly, he actually refuses to discuss with me because he's afraid I will make sense and change his mind. I admire his steadfastness, but very much regret that it is misplaced.

The truly ironic thing is that his beliefs are actually about 90% Orthodox, and he doesn't attend either evangelical or reformed churches either.

Do you attend this church without your husband, and against his wishes?
 
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let's just say if one believes the bible to be the final binding authority on faith and practice for the church, you're gonna have a lot of questions about rome's catholicism.

The bible isn't an authority on faith.

You can't ask the bible a question. One interprets scripture and the one interpreting is the authority.
 
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