Catholicism wrong?

[WarriorAngel]

Why would God be more merciful before Christ than after?

Since they were not held accountable to be baptized YET, then how could they be judged according to baptism?
Baptism did not happen until the NT...thru the Gospels.
Which was b4 David's time.

I am referring to Christ being merciful prior to baptism being established [which washes away sins]...so He judged the souls who died prior to His Own death according to their goodness in keeping the laws...and or how good they were even without the laws [Gentiles]

Here is an example of an early Church father, whom lived at the time when St John had just passed away, and who was taught by those whom were taught by the Apostles.



For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow...And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).


AND

Infant Baptism

"And many, both men and women, who have been Christ's disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years..." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15:6 (A.D. 110-165).
"And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins." Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

BTW Lisa, you are not the only one learning when we both read the early fathers. I highly recommend deep reading of the earliest Christians. IF we are to imitate those whom the Apostles taught directly or by their own disciples, we must seek and find that which was taught....that would be the One Truth we need to research. We both know that Jesus did not abandon man......
WE know His Spirit kept the truth for us, and we know..... He wants us all to embrace His truth.

Peace!

 

[Lisa0315]

Since they were not held accountable to be baptized YET, then how could they be judged according to baptism?
Baptism did not happen until the NT...thru the Gospels.
Which was b4 David's time.

I am referring to Christ being merciful prior to baptism being established [which washes away sins]...so He judged the souls who died prior to His Own death according to their goodness in keeping the laws...and or how good they were even without the laws [Gentiles]

Here is an example of an early Church father, whom lived at the time when St John had just passed away, and who was taught by those whom were taught by the Apostles.



For Christ also said, 'Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.' Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers' wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: 'Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do well…And though your sins be as scarlet, I will make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make them white as snow...And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who leads to the layer the person that is to be washed calling him by this name alone…And this washing is called illumination, because they who learn these things are illuminated in their understandings. And in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Ghost, who through the prophets foretold all things about Jesus, he who is illuminated is washed." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 61 (A.D. 110-165).


AND

Infant Baptism

"And many, both men and women, who have been Christ's disciples from childhood, remain pure and at the age of sixty or seventy years..." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 15:6 (A.D. 110-165).
"And when a child has been born to one of them, they give thanks to God [baptism]; and if moreover it happen to die in childhood, they give thanks to God the more, as for one who as passed through the world without sins." Aristides, Apology, 15 (A.D. 140).

BTW Lisa, you are not the only one learning when we both read the early fathers. I highly recommend deep reading of the earliest Christians. IF we are to imitate those whom the Apostles taught directly or by their own disciples, we must seek and find that which was taught....that would be the One Truth we need to research. We both know that Jesus did not abandon man......
WE know His Spirit kept the truth for us, and we know..... He wants us all to embrace His truth.

Peace!

Well, here is the thing...Assuming that every word that Catholicism teaches is true, this means that Protestants are somehow serving God in a lesser way. True? How do you account for the blessings that God has bestowed on Protestants? For example, the USA was founded on Protestantism more than Catholicism. How do you explain the absolute power, blessing, grace bestowed upon this nation, a nation that until the Kennedy's were fairly intolerant of Catholics? Would God not have revealed shortcomings to Protestants by now? Would he not have raised up a prophet to return us to our mother? Or, is it possible that God did raise up a prophet (meaning to speak forth the truth) in Luther?

Question: Was there ever a time in your life when you believed that works alone saved you? Have you ever heard this taught?

 

[Axion]

Well, here is the thing...Assuming that every word that Catholicism teaches is true, this means that Protestants are somehow serving God in a lesser way. True?

Protestants are lacking the fullness of the teaching and practice as laid down by the Apostles and passed through the Church Jesus founded. This does not mean they are condemned for this, but their fullness is incomplete. An example is the protestant lack of the Eucharist as the reality of Jesus's body and blood - as He established it.

How do you account for the blessings that God has bestowed on Protestants? For example, the USA was founded on Protestantism more than Catholicism. How do you explain the absolute power, blessing, grace bestowed upon this nation, a nation that until the Kennedy's were fairly intolerant of Catholics?

Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. Nation States have risen and fallen, prospered and failed. Rome was hugely powerful as a pagan nation. So was Babylon. China too. France and Spain have been powerful Catholic nations. Islam was hugely powerful for ten centuries. The fact that the USA has been powerful for two centuries doesn't establish that much.

And to take your argument further, if we look at numbers of Christian believers, then Catholics far outnumber other denominations. Perhaps that might be a better sign to follow?

Would God not have revealed shortcomings to Protestants by now? Would he not have raised up a prophet to return us to our mother? Or, is it possible that God did raise up a prophet (meaning to speak forth the truth) in Luther?

There have always been groups separated from the Catholic Church. There were the Gnostics and Arians in the 1st to 5th Centuries. The Manichaeans, Nestorians and others after that. Gradually they died out and returned to the one Church.

As for Luther being a prophet - his actions in lifestyle do not provide the witness to bear this out. For example he urged the massacre of the Bavarian and Swabian peasants, he urged that the jews be dispossessed and expelled from Germany, he allowed one princeling to have two wives.

Question: Was there ever a time in your life when you believed that works alone saved you? Have you ever heard this taught?

Works alone is the Pelagian Heresy, condemned by the Church for the past 1500 years.

 

[Carrye]

His grace is sufficient to render them saints in utero. Until they can receive the sacrament properly.

His grace is certainly sufficient. But the way in which you're trying to apply his grace is not something that he has revealed to us. You're wanting surety where there is none.

We know the ordinary means for the washing of original sin - baptism. Does God work extraordinarily? Sure. But we cannot judge if/where God chooses to do that.

 

[Carrye]

Well, here is the thing...Assuming that every word that Catholicism teaches is true, this means that Protestants are somehow serving God in a lesser way. True?

No, Protestants are serving God according to their consciences. We all serve God in the best way we know how. That doesn't necessarily mean it's objectively the best way.

How do you account for the blessings that God has bestowed on Protestants? For example, the USA was founded on Protestantism more than Catholicism. How do you explain the absolute power, blessing, grace bestowed upon this nation, a nation that until the Kennedy's were fairly intolerant of Catholics? Would God not have revealed shortcomings to Protestants by now? Would he not have raised up a prophet to return us to our mother?

The Lord blesses those who seek him with a sincere heart. But don't mistake God's seeming inaction with approval. And don't mistake a nation's Protestantism as somehow meriting those blessings. Perhaps it is a few righteous Catholics. (Now I don't even believe that, but you see where the logic gets you).

Or, is it possible that God did raise up a prophet (meaning to speak forth the truth) in Luther?

God desires unity, not disunity, and so someone who came to cause disunity is not someone sent by God.

Question: Was there ever a time in your life when you believed that works alone saved you? Have you ever heard this taught?

Nope, never.

 

[Lisa0315]

Protestants are lacking the fullness of the teaching and practice as laid down by the Apostles and passed through the Church Jesus founded. This does not mean they are condemned for this, but their fullness is incomplete. An example is the protestant lack of the Eucharist as the reality of Jesus's body and blood - as He established it.


Jesus's kingdom is not of this world. Nation States have risen and fallen, prospered and failed. Rome was hugely powerful as a pagan nation. So was Babylon. China too. France and Spain have been powerful Catholic nations. Islam was hugely powerful for ten centuries. The fact that the USA has been powerful for two centuries doesn't establish that much.

And to take your argument further, if we look at numbers of Christian believers, then Catholics far outnumber other denominations. Perhaps that might be a better sign to follow?


There have always been groups separated from the Catholic Church. There were the Gnostics and Arians in the 1st to 5th Centuries. The Manichaeans, Nestorians and others after that. Gradually they died out and returned to the one Church.

As for Luther being a prophet - his actions in lifestyle do not provide the witness to bear this out. For example he urged the massacre of the Bavarian and Swabian peasants, he urged that the jews be dispossessed and expelled from Germany, he allowed one princeling to have two wives.

Works alone is the Pelagian Heresy, condemned by the Church for the past 1500 years.

Catholics outnumber Protestants in the world, but not in the USA. You do not see a special blessing on the USA unlike any other nation except Israel?

As far as works...again, I ask if this has been taught or believed by you at any time in your life. Do you as a Catholic believe that you add anything to what Christ did on the cross? Do you believe that there is anything you can do that saves you? I am asking the question a hundred different ways because I think there is kind of a language barrier between Catholics and non-Catholics. I am trying to figure out what role works play in the the salvation of a Catholic. A Protestant would say, "None".

 

[Lisa0315]

No, Protestants are serving God according to their consciences. We all serve God in the best way we know how. That doesn't necessarily mean it's objectively the best way.



The Lord blesses those who seek him with a sincere heart. But don't mistake God's seeming inaction with approval. And don't mistake a nation's Protestantism as somehow meriting those blessings. Perhaps it is a few righteous Catholics. (Now I don't even believe that, but you see where the logic gets you).



God desires unity, not disunity, and so someone who came to cause disunity is not someone sent by God.



Nope, never.

But Luther did not initially seek to cause disunity. The RCC cast him out.

How do you account for the salvation by works fallacy that has been the chief complaint of Protestants against Catholics? If this has never been taught, what did Protestants protest?

 

[anawim]

But Luther did not initially seek to cause disunity. The RCC cast him out.

How do you account for the salvation by works fallacy that has been the chief complaint of Protestants against Catholics? If this has never been taught, what did Protestants protest?

Salvation is by grace alone. Faith and works are a sign of, a reinforcement for, and a witness to the grace of salvation. Faith and works are both gifts from God, to both justify, and sanctify us.

 

[Lisa0315]

Salvation is by grace alone. Faith and works are a sign of, a reinforcement for, and a witness to the grace of salvation. Faith and works are both gifts from God, to both justify, and sanctify us.

I believe exactly the same. Well said. Faith and works are from God as well. We do nothing without Christ. Whatever we do in His name, we do because He has gifted us and enabled us to do these things. Nothing we do on our own grants salvation.

 

[WarriorAngel]

You are right Carrye.

Would he not have raised up a prophet to return us to our mother? Or, is it possible that God did raise up a prophet (meaning to speak forth the truth) in Luther?

Actually Christ said all prophets that come and all christs are false. Matthew 24.
He also said not to follow them.


Works are thru grace.
WE have the grace in which we cooperate with that causes us to desire to do works.

Although Christ was sufficient to cleanse our sins, we must always obey Him, and we must not 'say' we have faith but not use it to serve mankind.

This is how we show our love for others....

Serving others by our cooperative actions, serves to show our faith to others, and this is why or how we have ppl believing in the Lord.

See?

Its like any give and take...we receive grace thru God which we may ask for ..... [thru a repentent and sorrowful heart] He bestows grace on us, and because we have grace, we desire to please God. To please God we do 'works' that aid humanity. [feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sharing with those who have none]...

So even if someone did works, but had no faith, their works will not save them.

I know of ppl who believe because someone cared and did works for them.

 

[a_ntv]

I believe exactly the same. Well said. Faith and works are from God as well. We do nothing without Christ. Whatever we do in His name, we do because He has gifted us and enabled us to do these things. Nothing we do on our own grants salvation.

I agree too. Anyone agrees. St Thomas Aquinates agreed. Council of Trent agrred. Only Luther did not agreed and for that broke the unity of the Church.

No, I dont thing he was a prophet.
Yes, surely there were (and there are) some wrong habits in the Cath Church, but like in a family when someone is wrong, you dont have to break but to to give good advices with love.

 

[Davidnic]

I believe exactly the same. Well said. Faith and works are from God as well. We do nothing without Christ. Whatever we do in His name, we do because He has gifted us and enabled us to do these things. Nothing we do on our own grants salvation.

And I think that most Catholics will agree with that statement unmodified. The whole faith and works thing as a difference between us is usually just a problem of how Catholics and Protestants both use (or at least have historically used) language. We put up unecessary barriers between us that are usually the result of 500 years of propaganda and anger on both sides.

No one can merit heaven with acts, but faith and works come from grace and then a deeper faith can grow from works and more beautiful works done with faith all for the glory of Christ.

If we merit anything it is only from the fact that being made in the image of God, each person has a dignity and beauty granted by God. But we have not earned it. But we can strive to be as worthy of it as humanly possible by following the example of Christ. So any "merit" is God given and can be rejected. All merits. All hope is in the Lord.

I think when Catholics use the word merit, most protestants think we mean "earn". I guess we use merit as "worthy of deserving" salvation. All people are worthy, God has made us that way. But we can not bribe God by just doing works. Sometimes our own words get between us.

And I think that when most Catholics hear Protestants talk of justification, we hear that you only need faith but can do whatever you want. But the Protestants I have known personally know full well that works are the necessary and real companion to faith. And both are needed to fully help us work with the grace freely given by God. Works and Faith. Faith and Works. Both for the love of God.

I went to Catholic schools my whole life and never once was I taught that works earned salvation. I knew people who made that mistake, but it was always explained that works and faith are results of Grace and grace is a gift freely given by a loving God to all people. Faith and works are two things that are ways we cooperate with God's gift. As a Catholic I have never been taught anything other than that.

 

[Lisa0315]

You are right Carrye.




Actually Christ said all prophets that come and all christs are false. Matthew 24.
He also said not to follow them.


Works are thru grace.
WE have the grace in which we cooperate with that causes us to desire to do works.

Although Christ was sufficient to cleanse our sins, we must always obey Him, and we must not 'say' we have faith but not use it to serve mankind.

This is how we show our love for others....

Serving others by our cooperative actions, serves to show our faith to others, and this is why or how we have ppl believing in the Lord.

See?

Its like any give and take...we receive grace thru God which we may ask for ..... [thru a repentent and sorrowful heart] He bestows grace on us, and because we have grace, we desire to please God. To please God we do 'works' that aid humanity. [feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, sharing with those who have none]...

So even if someone did works, but had no faith, their works will not save them.

I know of ppl who believe because someone cared and did works for them.

Well, you get a great big ole Baptist "Amen!" on that!

Okay, next question, and I promise I am almost satisfied. If the Catholic church has been misrepresented for five hundred years, what was the point of the Lutheran agreement? Why sign a statement like that other than the obvious unification and peace? If it was like, "Well, duh!", why is this agreement such a big deal?

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Well, you get a great big ole Baptist "Amen!" on that!

If the Catholic church has been misrepresented for five hundred years, what was the point of the Lutheran agreement? Why sign a statement like that other than the obvious unification and peace?

Obedience; to put it simply because Jesus said "you must be one as the Father and I are one". We must seek unity eleminate this division as much as possible while still standing fast in the Truth.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Lisa0315]

Obedience because Jesus said "you must be one as the Father and I are one". We must seek unity eleminate this division as much as possible while still standing fast in the Truth.

Yours in Christ.

Why did it take 500 years? Why were people on both sides killed? Why were kings and queens put into power depending on which side of the fence they were on? Were all the popes prior to JPII disobedient to God?

 

[a_ntv]

The big problem with Luther is "Sola Scriptura" (only scripture). The problem is the 'only'.
That is why we caths (and Orths) are always on such a point, that for us is:
- illogical
- unsuported by the same Bible
- contrary to Fathers teachings
- not included in Nicene creed
- un-historical

 

[Lisa0315]

The big problem with Luther is "Sola Scriptura" (only scripture). The problem is the 'only'.
That is why we caths (and Orths) are always on such a point, that for us is:
- illogical
- unsuported by the same Bible
- contrary to Fathers teachings
- not included in Nicene creed
- un-historical

Thank You. That was very helpful.

The more I talk to all of y'all, the less difference I see. Do you know that we also do not depend on Sola Scriptura? We are an independent church meaning we have no affiliation with say the Southern Baptist Convention. Our little church rules itself. However, on a much smaller scale, there is a similar accountability in our church that you have in the entirety of Catholicism. For example, if our pastor were to begin preaching a strange gospel, we have the power to eject him. Same goes with anyone else in the church. A good example would be a member who went to our pastor and confessed that he was gay. Our pastor talked to him at great length but the guy was unrepentant. He said that he was going to continue in his lifestyle that up until that moment he had kept hidden. Our pastor told him that he had no choice but to remove him from the membership of our church.

Next, tradition. There are times when our pastor will give us background information regarding his sermon text, most of which comes from early Christian writings like the ones cited here. A good example is regarding Herod and his adulterous relationship with his brother's wife. The fact that his brother was still alive is not found in scripture but is found in church history. Other good examples of how we still rely on the tradition of our early fathers is the stories of how the apostles died. Not found in scripture, but what inspiration!

So, again, I just do not see all that much difference between us. Remember, Baptists were not part of the Protestant movement. Anabaptist emerged around the same period of time, but we were kind of like, "Hey, we're going to go worship God now. Y'all let us know who wins!" We didn't get in the middle of all the politics and controversy.

This has been such a great experience for me. I really, really appreciate all that participated and for the patience in answering all my questions.


Lisa

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, you get a great big ole Baptist "Amen!" on that!

I believe Baptists are Catholic and just do not know it.

Okay, next question, and I promise I am almost satisfied. If the Catholic church has been misrepresented for five hundred years, what was the point of the Lutheran agreement? Why sign a statement like that other than the obvious unification and peace? If it was like, "Well, duh!", why is this agreement such a big deal?

Lutheran was not excommunicated until he refused to return.

Then because the Church did indeed remove him after his obstinancy, he rebeled.

Why did it take 500 years? Why were people on both sides killed? Why were kings and queens put into power depending on which side of the fence they were on? Were all the popes prior to JPII disobedient to God?

Pride......pride in God, and then pride in man.
I wont go further, but we know who had pride in themself.
The one who refused to be submissive.

So, again, I just do not see all that much difference between us.

SO why arent you Catholic?
[we were here first...]

Seriously, the differences are there, but you have to understand, the succession of the Apostolic line is extremely important.

For by the ordained hand, we have men in the position to stand in for Jesus while He is not physically present.

They are sinners, yes, but the ordination [same one since the Apostles ordained] will consecrate the Eucharist and we indeed receive Christ.

CHRIST in us.

I cannot even explain it, but for the true unity, we all need Him. WE all know it...
And He loves us..... and is WITH us.

Think about it......symbol vs real.
Which do you prefer?

Peace and

 

[Lisa0315]

I believe Baptists are Catholic and just do not know it.



Lutheran was not excommunicated until he refused to return.

Then because the Church did indeed remove him after his obstinancy, he rebeled.



Pride......pride in God, and then pride in man.
I wont go further, but we know who had pride in themself.
The one who refused to be submissive.



SO why arent you Catholic?
[we were here first...]

Seriously, the differences are there, but you have to understand, the succession of the Apostolic line is extremely important.

For by the ordained hand, we have men in the position to stand in for Jesus while He is not physically present.

They are sinners, yes, but the ordination [same one since the Apostles ordained] will consecrate the Eucharist and we indeed receive Christ.

CHRIST in us.

I cannot even explain it, but for the true unity, we all need Him. WE all know it...
And He loves us..... and is WITH us.

Think about it......symbol vs real.
Which do you prefer?

Peace and

I think y'all are Baptist and don't know it!

Of course, I prefer real, but I have real every single day. He is in my heart.

Let me ask you something. What would happen if I went to a Catholic church and received the Eucharist? Would I automatically be allowed to do this? Or do I have to be Catholic first? (Assuming I have the guts to walk into a Catholic church without having a clue what to do)

 

[a_ntv]

ILet me ask you something. What would happen if I went to a Catholic church and received the Eucharist? Would I automatically be allowed to do this? Or do I have to be Catholic first? (Assuming I have the guts to walk into a Catholic church without having a clue what to do)

Never been in a cath church? When I'm in the US I often go to protestant services too. I like them!!
(I go suturday eve in cath church and sunday morning to protestant service)

A cath church is more open than a protestant congregation. There is no need of any inviatation and you have the right to came in, follow the mass or simply pray without having to say hello to anyone. My sister lives in US from seven years, goes every week at Mass, but she never registered!!

The official rule is to avoid to share Communion with protestants. It is a question of respect, because the bread is realy the Body of Christ even if you dont believe. Anyway the priest must give you the Communion if go in the line to take It.

If you to visit a cath church you lose nothing of your faith, but you could get some new hints and helps for christian life.