Catholicism wrong?

[Lisa0315]

Of course he does. In fact, there are three possibilities here.

1-God
2-Satan
3-Your own concience

Any of the three can be guide you into something. The question is, how do you know which is whch? How do you know that you are on the right path/interpretation?


As.

After much prayer and study, I get a feeling of peace about a matter. If I do not feel at peace, then, God has not yet answered me, or it means, "Wait".

Sometimes, the answer is immediate. Other times, I am reading the Bible, and it just hits me. Other times, events occur that make the situation clear. But, whenever the answer is given, there is no more back and forth. It is just very very clear. With the other two options, there is no peace.

 

[Skripper]

After much prayer and study, I get a feeling of peace about a matter. If I do not feel at peace, then, God has not yet answered me, or it means, "Wait".

Sometimes, the answer is immediate. Other times, I am reading the Bible, and it just hits me. Other times, events occur that make the situation clear. But, whenever the answer is given, there is no more back and forth. It is just very very clear. With the other two options, there is no peace.

So you rely on a "feeling"? Can "feelings" be wrong?

 

[Asimis]

After much prayer and study, I get a feeling of peace about a matter. If I do not feel at peace, then, God has not yet answered me, or it means, "Wait".

Sometimes, the answer is immediate. Other times, I am reading the Bible, and it just hits me. Other times, events occur that make the situation clear. But, whenever the answer is given, there is no more back and forth. It is just very very clear. With the other two options, there is no peace.

I'll say it again...
This is why I said what I said a few posts earlier. What you mean by being lead by the Holy Spirit is just your subjective feelings and what you mean by agreeing with, are things that conform to those feelings. You have no objective basis for knowing wether or not you are being lead by the Holy Spirit other than your own feelings

"Feelings" are what lead Eve to temptation, after finding the fruit pleasant to the eyes and good for eating.


As.

 

[Lisa0315]

So you rely on a "feeling"? Can "feelings" be wrong?

Feelings can, yes. This, though, this recognition and the peace that comes with it, has not failed me yet.

 

[Lisa0315]

I'll say it again...
This is why I said what I said a few posts earlier. What you mean by being lead by the Holy Spirit is just your subjective feelings and what you mean by agreeing with, are things that conform to those feelings. You have no objective basis for knowing wether or not you are being lead by the Holy Spirit other than your own feelings

"Feelings" are what lead Eve to temptation, after finding the fruit pleasant to the eyes and good for eating.


As.

I disagree. It was not feelings, but doubting God that led Eve to sin.

 

[Skripper]

Lisa,

Regarding your preference for the KJ Bible (I like it, too, by the way ) and your trust in the KJ scholars. You do realize, don't you, that they did not determine the canon . . . right? They simply put together a translation of an already-existing canon. They did not compile it and declare it God-breathed Scriputure. You do realize that, right?

 

[Skripper]

I disagree. It was not feelings, but doubting God that led Eve to sin.

Yet you are, according to what you've said, relying on your own (subjective) feelings when it comes to following what you believe to be Scripture and what you believe to be God's Word, and His Will.

 

[GraceInHim]

God draws sinners to him .. do they have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Lisa0315]

Who? Can you name one person on the earth that can, infallibly, do this? One person that can correctly discern what is and isn't Scriputre . . . all on his/her own, while personally led by the Holy Spirit? One person?

Infallibly? No. I cannot name a single person. That would be one of our differences.

No, the Bible does not say this. I believe you may be referring to Acts chapter 11 . . . specifically around verse 17 . . . but that's not what it's saying, if read in context, from the beginning of the chapter.

No, that is not it. Give me a few and I will find it.

<Sorry, I messed up your quote.>

I do not believe it is possible that pride can be set aside and disagreement still occur. I cannot answer such a question because for me it calls into question the very direction we were given to resolve our differences.

 

[Asimis]

Feelings can, yes. This, though, this recognition and the peace that comes with it, has not failed me yet.

You missed the point. The point is that feelings are not a realiable guide for deciding things. There is also reason, evidence, etc to take into account.


As.

 

[Skripper]

Feelings can, yes. This, though, this recognition and the peace that comes with it, has not failed me yet.

So, you know, based upon these "feelings," that all you believe, doctrinally, is infallibly correct? May I ask what Church you belong to, where you worship? Your icon indicates you are Baptist. Do you believe everything the Baptist Church teaches doctrinally to be infallibly correct? If not, and you have areas of disagreement, are you right and your Church wrong, in those areas? Would your pastor agree that you are right and his Church is wrong on any areas that you disagree with the doctrine . . . if there are any areas of disagreement, that is?

 

[Asimis]

God draws sinners to him ..

So does Satan. The question is how do you know who is drawing you?


As.

 

[GraceInHim]

So does Satan. The question is how do you know who is drawing you?


As.

good question

Mine can only be God, because of the change and also showed me I belonged to the Church all the time even when I sinned, he forgave..

 

[Lisa0315]

So, you know, based upon these "feelings," that all you believe, doctrinally, is infallibly correct? May I ask what Church you belong to, where you worship? Your icon indicates you are Baptist. Do you believe everything the Baptist Church teaches doctrinally to be infallibly correct? If not, and you have areas of disagreement, are you right and your Church wrong, in those areas? Would your pastor agree that you are right and his Church is wrong on any areas that you disagree with the doctrine . . . if there are any areas of disagreement, that is?

There are no areas of doctrine that I disagree on with my pastor, no. There are other areas outside of doctrine that I disagree with him about, namely the role of the Catholic church in Christianity.

I do not believe that Baptists have everything doctrinally correct, as in perfectly correct. I believe that the church I attend, not the denomination, is as close as it gets. If I thought otherwise, I would not go to that church.

 

[Lisa0315]

You missed the point. The point is that feelings are not a realiable guide for deciding things. There is also reason, evidence, etc to take into account.


As.

No, I did not miss the point. I understood your question, and I answered it. Feelings in general can be deceitful. However, I stand by what I said. The feeling of peace when I am trying to understand something, or make a decision, or whatever it may be, is tried, tested, and true. I know my Master's voice. That should be all the answer that is required for this question. Jesus said that His sheep will know His voice and I do.

 

[Skripper]

Infallibly? No. I cannot name a single person. That would be one of our differences.

Then who are these people that you speak of, who are mature in their faith, who can discern what is and isn't Scripture? You said such people exist . . . who are they?

No, that is not it. Give me a few and I will find it.

Sorry, I mixed up the chapter and verse. I'm working from memory here. It's actually chapter 17, verse 11, that I believe you have in mind.

<Sorry, I messed up your quote.>

I do not believe it is possible that pride can be set aside and disagreement still occur. I cannot answer such a question because for me it calls into question the very direction we were given to resolve our differences.

Hypothetically then. If two people put their pride aside. Prayed together and read the Bible together, yet still had doctrinal differences . . . what then? And what about my other questions? What if they had no Bible? Or were unable to read . . . what then?

 

[Lisa0315]

Yet you are, according to what you've said, relying on your own (subjective) feelings when it comes to following what you believe to be Scripture and what you believe to be God's Word, and His Will.

Again, I know my Master's voice. I am actually a little surprised at how much you doubt this.

 

[Skripper]

No, I did not miss the point. I understood your question, and I answered it. Feelings in general can be deceitful. However, I stand by what I said. The feeling of peace when I am trying to understand something, or make a decision, or whatever it may be, is tried, tested, and true. I know my Master's voice. That should be all the answer that is required for this question. Jesus said that His sheep will know His voice and I do.

Lisa,

What you are asserting, basically, is that you rely on your feelings. The logical extention of this line of reasoning is that "I am right because I feel that I am right." A further logical extention of this reasoning is, therefore, "Anyone else who disagrees with me is, therefore, wrong, because I feel that I am right." No offense, but that's really all you're saying. Shoot, anyone can make that claim.

 

[Skripper]

Again, I know my Master's voice. I am actually a little surprised at how much you doubt this.

Oh, I don't doubt the Master's Voice. What I'm having trouble with is taking your word for "the Master's voice," if and when it is in conflict with Catholic teaching. Again, no offense, but I'll take the Church's word when it comes to "hearing the Master's Voice," over and above your word, and over and above my own word, or anyone else's word, when it comes to that.

 

[Vedant]

It's a Mass.

We have readings from the Bible, and then the consecration and lots of prayers! (The whole Mass is a prayer )

where bread and wine are truly consecrated into the Body and Blood of Jesus for us to receive.

that sums it up.

this is a good order of Mass to know what words are said and such

http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm

This is a very interesting point. Reading ancient liturgies makes this much more apparent...sort of a communal prayer.