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BNR32FAN

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That's possible. But you still cannot argue that the passage in question is referring to your own denomination and none other. You would be, at best, saying that YOU think your denomination has it right and the others have it wrong. The passage itself isn't identifying which is which, though.

I’m not Catholic, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox friend. I like to think of myself as a nondenominational who has a tendency to lean towards the Orthodox beliefs. I just don’t embrace all of them. Some I prefer to remain neutral on because I can’t see sufficient evidence to either support or deny them.
 
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Albion

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I didn’t say they aren’t authorized by the Bible. I said the Bible says prayers of intercession and supplication are beneficial and encouraged by the Bible. It does not specify whether we ask those who are in this world or the next to pray for us.
You cannot have it both ways. Either the Bible recommends the practice...or it is NOT authorized but innocent enough, harmless, even if ineffective or misplaced.

And that is to say nothing of the fact that the church you defend is not saying that *it is harmless, so why not?* She clearly encourages the practice, says it is good to engage in, will bring results, etc.
 
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Albion

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I’m not Catholic, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox friend.
It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other. However, I am able to notice which side you will support, using its own arguments, whenever this sort of thread comes around.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You cannot have it both ways. Either the Bible recommends the practice...or it is NOT authorized but innocent enough, harmless, even if ineffective or misplaced.

And that is to say nothing of the fact that the church you defend is not saying that *it is harmless, so why not?* She clearly encourages the practice, says it is good to engage in, will bring results, etc.

Actually the Orthodox Church teaches that prayers to the saints can be beneficial. I’m not aware of them teaching that it undoubtedly will be beneficial.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Certainly it does. I acknowledge that, but I doesn't change a thing about our exchange.

According to the scriptures it is possible that prayers to those in heaven can be beneficial.
 
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Lost4words

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No my dear I can not. No one can. But you knew that already. As A Catholic, I am a little surprised by any Catholic who would try and disprove such a strong RCC doctrine as the Trinity just because the word is not found in the Scriptures and then use the opposite argument to prove Purgatory, the Assentation of Mary. the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the Rosary and on and on and on.

Don't you see the problem in such an effort?

I can however post Scripture where the term is considered as "Implied Truth"...……..

The Trinity, 3 IN one IS SEEN OR implied IN...…….

Genesis 1:26
"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Who do YOU think that "US, and OUR" are in that verse?????

Genesis 3:22
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever".

Same question?


Matthew 3:16
“After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him.”

Matthew 12:28
“But if I [Jesus] cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.”

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit . . .”

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.

:doh:
 
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PoppyB

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“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.”
‭‭2 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬
Can't see what that has to do with what I said, which was, "Yes we are but not from dead people."
 
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Lost4words

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Immaculate conception:

Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception
“From the first instant of her conception, Mary was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.” (CCC 508)
Dave Armstrong
The Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary is harmonious with Holy Scripture, and is supported by both analogy and plausibility.

Luke 1:28 (RSV) And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!” [in the RSV – Catholic edition, “favored one” is rendered as “full of grace”]

Many translations use “favor” here, yet even the great Baptist Greek scholar A. T. Robertson (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. II, 13) agrees that the word involved (kecharitomene) means “full of grace which thou hast received”. It's derived from the Greek root, charis(literally, “grace”).

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, “grace”). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated “grace” 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Presbyterian Greek scholar Marvin Vincent (Word Studies in the New Testament) noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as “full of grace” and that the literal meaning was “endued with grace” (I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W. E. Vine (Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words), defines it as “to endue with Divine favour or grace” (II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias.

Now, one might wonder, “what does it mean to be full of grace?” For St. Paul, grace is the antithesis and overcomer of sin:

Romans 6:14, 22 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. . . . [22] But now that you have been set free from sin . . . the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Moreover, we are saved by grace:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God

Acts 15:11 . . . we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus . . .

Romans 3:24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,

Titus 3:7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Therefore, it follows, I submit, that for a person to be full of grace is to both be saved and to be exceptionally, completely holy. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness, and this is deduced from many biblical passages about the antithetical relation of grace to sin, and salvation and its accompanying sanctification to sin.

The only remaining question is: when did God apply this grace to Mary? We know she possessed it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so as to avoid the original sin that she inevitably would have inherited, being human, but for God's preventive grace, which saved her from falling into the pit of sin. It was grace from God that couldn’t possibly have had anything to do with Mary’s personal merit.

But do we ever observe in the Bible, other persons being extraordinarily sanctified, even before their birth? Yes; for example, the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah:

Isaiah 49:1, 5 . . . The LORD called me from the womb, . . . [5] And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, . . . (cf. Job 31:15, 18; Jud 16:17)

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations. (cf. Sirach 49:7)

“Consecrated” or “sanctified” (KJV) in Jeremiah 1:5 is the Hebrew word quadash. According to Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon of the Old Testament (p. 725), in this instance it meant “to declare any one holy.”

Jeremiah was thus consecrated or sanctified from the womb; possibly from conception. This is fairly analogous to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. We know Jeremiah was a very holy man, and perhaps even sinless. We also have New Testament evidence of such sanctification before birth (John the Baptist and St. Paul):

Luke 1:15 for he will be great before the Lord, . . . and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. (cf. 1:41, 44)

Galatians 1:15 . . . he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace,

We know that John the Baptist was also a very holy man. Was he sinless? We can't know that for sure from the biblical data. St. Catherine of Siena, for one, believed that he never sinned (A Treatise of Prayer). But we do know for sure that he was sanctified from the womb. The Bible also refers to Job as exceptionally holy (“blameless”):

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God, and turned away from evil. . . . [8] And the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?” (cf. 2:3)

Therefore, by analogy and plausibility, we can and may conclude that it is “biblical” to believe in faith that Mary was immaculately conceived. Nothing in the Bible contradicts this belief. It does require faith, of course. God restored to Mary the innocence of Eve before the Fall, and filled her with grace, in order to make her “fit” for the unspeakably sublime, sanctified task of being the Mother of God the Son.

Source: Biblical Support for Mary’s Immaculate Conception
 
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Lost4words

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Purgatory:

4 Biblical Principles That Show the Reality of Purgatory
The Catholic belief in Purgatory is indeed scriptural, and here's the proof.
John Martignoni
Q. I have an Evangelical friend at work who claims that the Catholic belief in Purgatory is not scriptural. What should I say to him?

A. I want to answer that question by first using Scripture and then by using some common sense.

From the perspective of Scripture, the word “Purgatory” never appears in the Bible. Does that mean Purgatory isn’t in the Bible? Not at all. The word “Incarnation” is not in the Bible, but all Christians believe the Incarnation is a scriptural belief. The word “Trinity” is not in the Bible, but all Christians believe the Trinity is a scriptural belief. So, the mere fact that the word “Purgatory” does not appear in the Bible does not mean Catholics have to admit that Purgatory is a non-scriptural teaching, as we will see.

To demonstrate the very scriptural nature of the doctrine of Purgatory, let's first establish some Catholic scriptural principles, starting in the Old Testament. In 2 Samuel 12:13-18, it states, “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick…On the seventh day the child died.”

What do we see here? David sins. David realizes he has sinned. David repents. David is forgiven — the Lord “put away” his sin. Yet, David receives punishment for his sin after he has been forgiven — his child dies.

Catholic Scriptural Principle #1 – there is the possibility of punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.

Let’s move now to the New Testament. Revelation 21:27 says, “But nothing unclean shall enter it…” This is referring to the New Jerusalem – Heaven.

Catholic Scriptural Principle #2 – nothing unclean - nothing, in other words, with the stain of sin — will enter Heaven.

More Scripture. Hebrews 12:22-23, “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem...and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…” Notice, it speaks of the “spirits” of just men (who, as Catholics would say, are those that died in a state of grace), who are in Heaven, and who have been “made perfect.”

Catholic Scriptural Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the “just” are “made perfect.”

And finally, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-15: “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation [Jesus Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place that a man, after he dies, has his works tested, and could suffer loss, as through fire, but still be saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss as through fire in Heaven. It must be somewhere else.

Catholic Scriptural Principle #4 – there is a place, or state of being, other than Heaven or Hell.

Now, let’s summarize these four scriptural principles: There is the possibility of punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness. Nothing with the stain of sin will enter Heaven. There is some way, or process, by which the spirits of the just are made perfect. And there is a place besides Heaven or Hell where you can suffer loss, yet still be saved, but only as through fire. We’ve just, in essence, described Purgatory. Conclusion: Catholic teaching on Purgatory is indeed scriptural.

Now, what about the common sense perspective on Purgatory that I mentioned earlier?

Well, think about this: Are you perfect right now? In every single way — physically, mentally, emotionally, and/or spiritually — are you perfect? Do you have any attachment to sin? Do you never have a bad thought, say a bad word, do something you shouldn’t, or don’t do something you should? Do you ever get sick? I have asked a whole lot of people that question and I have never had anyone say to me that, yes, they are perfect.

So, you’re not perfect. But, God forbid, let’s say you were to die this very instant and you were to go to Heaven. Would you be perfect in Heaven? Yes, you would be. You would be perfectly united to the Body of Christ, no more sin, no more pain, no more anguish, no more illness. Your soul would be free from sin and your body — after the Resurrection of the Dead — would be in its glorified state. You would be perfect in Heaven.

Well, think about that. You die imperfect; but you enter Heaven perfect. How did that happen? There was some process by which the spirit of the just was made perfect. Your imperfections were “purged” from you. Call that whatever you want, but that process is what we Catholics call “Purgatory.”

Source: 4 Biblical Principles That Show the Reality of Purgatory
 
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concretecamper

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News flash:

According to our most staunch opponents of the Church

1. the word purgatory doesnt appear in the bible, therefore it doesnt exist
2. The word Trinity doesnt appear in the bible, but it is implied.

This is the most assumed I've been in a long time.^_^
 
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Albion

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Immaculate conception:
You probably did not notice, but not a single bit of what you presented proves or says that Mary was Immaculately Conceived.

A lot of it refers to similar information, but none of it translates as the Immaculate Conception.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Which scripture would that be?

Prayers of supplication are mentioned several times throughout the scriptures. There’s nothing to indicate that prayers to those in heaven are not beneficial and certainly not forbidden. Those who are in heaven are still in the body of Christ.

“With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, and pray on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in proclaiming it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭6:18-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Lost4words

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You probably did not notice, but not a single bit of what you presented proves or says that Mary was Immaculately Conceived.

A lot of it refers to similar information, but none of it translates as the Immaculate Conception.

Lol, i knew you would disagree with info supplied! :doh:
 
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Albion

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Purgatory:

4 Biblical Principles That Show the Reality of Purgatory
So there are 4 suppose Biblical Principles that prove Purgatory. Numbers 1 and 2 don't do anything to prove Purgatory but deal instead with other ideas--such as God
punishing people ON EARTH after they have been forgiven some sin. Quite obviously, this does not prove that there is a place or state in the afterlife which the church says is Purgatory exists. It isn't the same thing at all.

Principle 4 doesn't do anything but make the claim again! There isn't even an attempt to prove or demonstrate the truth of anything there.

So we come to point 3.
And finally, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-15: “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day [judgment day] will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation [Jesus Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

Where is this place that a man, after he dies, has his works tested, and could suffer loss, as through fire, but still be saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell, you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss as through fire in Heaven. It must be somewhere else.
Yes, its the judgment!!! We all believe, do we not, that we will be judged after death? Well, that is what is happening, with good being rewarded and wrong being "burned up...as through fire."

You may say that the rewarding of good is not controversial, but the burning up with fire part must refer to Purgatory. Not so.

First, the verse clearly says that the fire exists in order to test the works, not to torment the person.,

Second, it says that that the person will suffer loss because those acts will be destroyed, not that he will be punished indefinitely for having done wrong. You simply assumed that. There is no mention of punishment there at all.

But even if it were a place of punishment, that is not all that Purgatory is! According to the church that created Purgatory, the workings of the place are complex and diverse, with all sorts of interworkings and explanations...to which you offer us almost nothing but the word fire and say, in effect, ”There you go; that proves Purgatory.” In reality, it doesn't even come close.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Can't see what that has to do with what I said, which was, "Yes we are but not from dead people."

People in heaven are not dead. They are very much alive with The Lord and still in the body of Christ.
 
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