Catholic?

[BNR32FAN]

I can not agree with your comment. Oh, I agree that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, BUT not like YOU are wanting it to say because that verse is NOT speaking of Roman Catholic Church.

Actually at the time it was written it was referring to the Catholic Church but the church hadn’t adopted the name Catholic yet. The apostolic Church of God adopted the name Catholic some time between 107AD-180AD. We know this because in St Ignatius’ epistle to the Smyrnaeans written in 107AD Ignatius calls the church by name as the Church of God but later describes the church as being Catholic (universal) in nature. Later St Iranaeus would refer to the church by name as the Catholic Church in his writing Adversus Haereses written in 180AD. One thing many people don’t know about is the Roman church was actually excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1054AD for many reasons beginning with the addition of the filioque to the Nicene Creed, Rome’s insistence of priest celibacy, their use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist, and the straw that broke the camel’s back which was Rome’s claim to papal supremacy. So at the time when Paul wrote 1 Timothy he was in fact referring to the Catholic Church as a whole because at that time the Catholic Church was the only Christian church that existed and all of the churches were in communion with each other including Rome. But now that Rome has been excommunicated from the apostolic Catholic Church Paul’s statement no longer applies to the Roman church.

 

[BNR32FAN]

"One another," yes. We are not encouraged to pray to spirits of the dead, however.

To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. Do you believe this?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes we are but not from dead people.

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.”
‭‭2 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Agree...….those who are alive, not dead.

“Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord- for we walk by faith, not by sight- we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.”
‭‭2 CORINTHIANS‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

They aren’t praying to the dead. Surely you believe John 6:26-58?

 

[Albion]

Actually at the time it was written it was referring to the Catholic Church but the church hadn’t adopted the name Catholic yet.

Stop there. That isn't the case. The reference, dating from ca. AD 100, was to the universal and orthodox faith, as opposed to Gnostics etc. It was not a reference to any particular denomination or diocese, etc.

In our own times, and as you must know, there are all sorts of churches which claim that the reference was to their organization alone, the Roman Catholic Church included.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Stop there. This isn't the case. The reference ca. 100 AD was to the universal and orthodox faith, as opposed to Gnostics etc. It was not a reference to any particular denomination or diocese, etc.

In our own times, and as you must know, there are all sorts of churches which claim that the reference was to them alone, the Roman Catholic Church included.

The Roman church at that time was a member of the Church of God. It wasn’t until much later that the Roman Church split off from the apostolic Church of God so I maintain that when 1 Timothy was written Paul was including the Roman church at that time, not the Roman Catholic Church we see today. They are very different.

 

[Albion]

To be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord. Do you believe this?

It doesn't matter if I do or do not. Your question is not germane to the issue. The Bible advises us to pray for each other, i.e. our neighbors...as you said. It does not say to pray to spirits who, for all we know, cannot hear us or, if they can, cannot help us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Stop there. That isn't the case. The reference, dating from ca. AD 100, was to the universal and orthodox faith, as opposed to Gnostics etc. It was not a reference to any particular denomination or diocese, etc.

In our own times, and as you must know, there are all sorts of churches which claim that the reference was to their organization alone, the Roman Catholic Church included.

In order for a denomination to be included in the church Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:15 they must have the same doctrines the church had at that time. Reformed churches do not apply because their doctrines didn’t exist in Christianity for the first 1500 years of Christianity’s existence.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It doesn't matter if I do or do not. Your question is not germane to the issue. The Bible advises us to pray for each other, i.e. our neighbors...as you said. It does not say to pray to spirits who, for all we know, cannot hear us or, if they can, cannot help us.

So what’s the harm in praying to those who are in heaven asking them to pray for us? Even if they can’t hear our prayers God can, and it’s not forbidden.

 

[Albion]

The Roman church at that time was a member of the Church of God.

Just as were the churches at Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and elsewhere.

It is not the case that the Scriptural reference about the household of God means the Diocese of Rome to the exclusion of Christians elsewhere in the Empire.

 

[concretecamper]

Hmmm. But there isn't anything in Scripture to support those inventions. Maybe some other doctrine would have worked better for you.

You can do better than that.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It doesn't matter if I do or do not. Your question is not germane to the issue. The Bible advises us to pray for each other, i.e. our neighbors...as you said. It does not say to pray to spirits who, for all we know, cannot hear us or, if they can, cannot help us.

Personally I don’t pray to anyone but God but I see no problem with others who pray asking for prayers of supplication.

 

[Albion]

So what’s the harm in praying to those who are in heaven asking them to pray for us? Even if they can’t hear our prayers God can, and it’s not forbidden.

But you are not calling it a harmless idiosyncrasy. You are saying that praying to the dead is a good, Godly, effective AND Scriptural practice. It is not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just as were the churches at Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, and elsewhere.

It is not the case that the Scriptural reference about the household of God means the Diocese of Rome to the exclusion of Christians elsewhere in the Empire.

All Christian churches cannot be the pillar of truth if they disagree on doctrine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But you are not calling it a harmless idiosyncrasy. You are saying that praying to the dead is a good, Godly, effective AND Scriptural practice. It is not.

Your only assuming those prayers are not beneficial, I’m simply saying they’re harmless.

 

[Albion]

In order for a denomination to be included in the church Paul mentioned in 1 Timothy 3:15 they must have the same doctrines the church had at that time. Reformed churches do not apply because their doctrines didn’t exist in Christianity for the first 1500 years of Christianity’s existence.

You are now making the "household of God" into a legal, institutional, specific entity of the sort that the New Testament clearly is not speaking of. We take such organizations with membership cards, etc. for granted in our time, but they were not in existence at the tine of the early church.

 

[Albion]

Your only assuming those prayers are not beneficial, I’m simply saying they’re harmless.

So you do not say that they are authorized by the Bible?? Why then would you try to argue that they are included in the meaning of the passage that says that we are to ask each other for prayer?? You seem to have changed your position now.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You are now making the "household of God" into a legal, institutional, specific entity of the sort that the New Testament clearly is not speaking of. We take such organizations with membership cards, etc. for granted in our time, but they were not in existence at the tine of the early church.

There is only 1 gospel not several different gospels friend. There can be only 1 truth.

 

[Albion]

All Christian churches cannot be the pillar of truth if they disagree on doctrine.

That's possible. But you still cannot argue that the passage in question is referring to your own denomination and none other. You would be, at best, saying that YOU think your denomination has it right and the others have it wrong. The passage itself isn't identifying which is which, though.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So you do not say that they are authorized by the Bible?? Why then would you try to argue that they are included in the meaning of the passage that says that we are to ask each other for prayer?? You seem to have changed your position now.

I didn’t say they aren’t authorized by the Bible. I said the Bible says prayers of intercession and supplication are beneficial and encouraged by the Bible. It does not specify whether we ask those who are in this world or the next to pray for us.