Catholic?

[Augustus_33AD]

I would rather see the scripture that explains it if you please.

There are no verses in the Holy Writ which explain the doctrine on their own. There are verses which hint strongly at the thing. What I linked was a very scholarly explanation of the scripture which can explain it far better than I.

 

[PoppyB]

It looks like we have basically covered that ground already.

It doesn't have to be. Catholics don't believe in sola scriptura.

But there is Mathew 5:26

I don't know what sola scripture is but if it refers to teachings that aren't in the bible then I wouldn't accept that they are from the Holy Spirit.

 

[PoppyB]

There are no verses in the Holy Writ which explain the doctrine on their own. There are verses which hint strongly at the thing. What I linked was a very scholarly explanation of the scripture which can explain it far better than I.

I read it and wasn't convinced that purgatory is anything to do with the Holy Spirit. Sorry.

 

[Concord1968]

I don't know what sola scripture is but if it refers to teachings that aren't in the bible then I wouldn't accept that they are from the Holy Spirit.

Sola Scriptura is the Reformation doctrine that Scripture is the only INFALLIBLE authority for faith and practice. Should not be confused with Nuda Scriptura, which makes Scripture the ONLY authority for faith and practice, period.

 

[PoppyB]

Sola Scriptura is the Reformation doctrine that Scripture is the only INFALLIBLE authority for faith and practice. Should not be confused with Nuda Scriptura, which makes Scripture the ONLY authority for faith and practice, period.

Not too sure I can get my head round that. So are you saying that RCs don't believe the bible to be infallible? Or that they believe there are also other infallible sources - i.e. popes? But surely anything pertaining to the church, its doctrines or traditions should be backed up with scripture?

 

[Augustus_33AD]

I read it and wasn't convinced that purgatory is anything to do with the Holy Spirit. Sorry.

Then I will pray for you.

 

[Augustus_33AD]

Not too sure I can get my head round that. So are you saying that RCs don't believe the bible to be infallible? Or that they believe there are also other infallible sources - i.e. popes? But surely anything pertaining to the church, its doctrines or traditions should be backed up with scripture?

The Bible is infallible

 

[PoppyB]

Then I will pray for you.

And I will pray for you.

 

[Concord1968]

Not too sure I can get my head round that. So are you saying that RCs don't believe the bible to be infallible? Or that they believe there are also other infallible sources - i.e. popes? But surely anything pertaining to the church, its doctrines or traditions should be backed up with scripture?

For Catholics, not only is the Bible infallible, but so is the Magisterium and the Pope. Sacred Tradition is given equal standing with Sacred Scripture, with the Magisterium given interpretive powers over both.

 

[PoppyB]

The Bible is infallible

But you said RCs don't believe in sola scripture. Now I'm really confused.

 

[Albion]

I don't know what sola scripture is but if it refers to teachings that aren't in the bible then I wouldn't accept that they are from the Holy Spirit.

Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is a term that refers to the Protestant belief about the authority that determines church doctrines. In other words, it says that there is nothing that is the equal of God's own word given in the Bible. The Bible/Scripture and it Alone is the basis.

Our friends were was politely saying that although his church believes in Purgatory, and has its reasons, the concept doesn't have Biblical backing.

And that is quite true; the doctrine of Purgatory was created only in the 15th century and is currently being redefined by the Catholic Church to make it more palatable to modern-day Catholics who won't accept a teaching about a true believer in Christ having to be tortured for small sins and ones already forgiven, simply because that was the perspective of the Middle Ages with its torture chambers, Inquisitions, witch hunts, and superstitions. Notice, for instance, how purging from sin in Purgatory is now being described as purification. That's a much less frightening word, isn't it?

 

[PoppyB]

Our friend was politely saying that although his church believes in Purgatory, and has its reasons, the concept doesn't have Biblical backing.

Thank you for the explanation.

 

[Augustus_33AD]

But you said RCs don't believe in sola scripture. Now I'm really confused.

We believe the Bible is infallible but we also believe that there is infallible sacred tradition as well

 

[Augustus_33AD]

Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is a term that refers to the Protestant belief about the authority that determines church doctrines. In other words, it says that there is nothing that is the equal of God's own word given in the Bible. The Bible/Scripture and it Alone is the basis.

Our friend was politely saying that although his church believes in Purgatory, and has its reasons, the concept doesn't have Biblical backing.

And that is quite true; the doctrine of Purgatory was created only in the 15th century and is currently being redefined by the Catholic Church to make it more palatable to modern-day Catholics who won't accept a teaching about a true believer in Christ having to be tortured for small sins and ones already forgiven, simply because that was the perspective of the Middle Ages with its torture chambers, Inquisitions, witch hunts, and superstitions. Notice, for instance, how purging from sin in Purgatory is now being described as purification. That's a much less frightening word, isn't it?

No it does I gave it earlier. I said it didn't need biblical backing not that it didn have any.

 

[PoppyB]

we also believe that there is infallible sacred tradition as well

Sorry to be so persistent but I really want to know. Where does the infallible sacred tradition come from and how do you know it's infallible and who proclaimed it to be infallible? Because surely if it's of fallible man then it will be not be infallible.

 

[Augustus_33AD]

Sorry to be so persistent but I really want to know. Where does the infallible sacred tradition come from and how do you know it's infallible and who proclaimed it to be infallible? Because surely if it's of fallible man then it will be not be infallible.

Good question. I'm no expert but as far as I can ascertain there are certain ideas that might have some basis in scripture that are debated and thought about over the centuries and it eventually goes to Rome and the pope defines using the fullness of his authority some idea as a dogma, which means that it must be belived for salvation. One example is the Immaculate Conception.

 

[Augustus_33AD]

Sorry to be so persistent but I really want to know. Where does the infallible sacred tradition come from and how do you know it's infallible and who proclaimed it to be infallible? Because surely if it's of fallible man then it will be not be infallible.

There are other ways too

 

[PoppyB]

There are other ways too

The church I belong to has a much simpler way of doing things. No trappings, no hierarchy, no set liturgy and no long standing tradition. It is a church which has used the scriptures as a sort of template. We are allowed to share a word or testimony or start a prayer or worship song and we are also allowed to preach if we have something to bring and also to baptise and distribute the bread and wine as we are all part of the Holy Priesthood of believers and nobody is more important than anybody else. The bible is our manual and the Holy Spirit our guide. I don't think I could belong to any other sort of church.

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there was no needy person among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. Acts 4:32-35

[ Good order in worship ] What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 1 Corinthians 14:26

 

[ralfyman]

...and what is "sacred tradition," The Sun? It is neither sacred nor tradition, and it is never mentioned in God's word, the Bible. It is whatever the denomination chooses to say has been the mind of the membership ever since the start of the church, although that is a claim that is easily disproven. Then, whatever the alleged opinion happens to be, it is made into a dogma and called another revelation from God equal to the Bible.

They are practices followed by Jesus and His apostles (which makes them sacred) and passed on to others (which makes them part of tradition) before the Bible was formed. In fact, several of them were involved in forming the canon of the Bible.

Do you understand? The books of the Bible were selected by the same sacred tradition.

 

[ralfyman]

The point is that they do NOT come from the Scriptures but instead come from the hearts of sinners...….men!

Who selected the books of the Bible that you now use.