Catholic Teachings.... Backed by Scripture??

[Gnarwhal]

How nice for you.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[Ted Lang]

How nice for you.

Yeah, I was thinkin the same thing... I'm so used to praying directly to the Father in Jesus' Name that it'd be a hassle to have to start prayin to Mary now at this point in my life.

I like having the direct connection anyway to eliminate any interference

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've never worried about praying to a saint asking them to pray for me because I often ask friends to pray for me so why not the saints?

 

[Albion]

Yeah, I was thinkin the same thing... I'm so used to praying directly to the Father in Jesus' Name that it'd be a hassle to have to start prayin to Mary now at this point in my life.

I like having the direct connection anyway to eliminate any interference

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a saint who has "pull" with him, huh?

It's amazing how some people feel that they need to humanize God in order to relate to him, even to the point of ascribing the worst in human nature to him!

 

[Standing Up]

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a saint who has "pull" with him, huh?

It's amazing how some people feel that they need to humanize God in order to relate to him, even to the point of ascribing the worst in human nature to him!

IIRC, this was a pagan concept that the dead have a better chance at getting through to god's ear, while the living are too far away still

 

[barryatlake]

Christ Himself likened His Church to a living organism, a vine, whose branches all share in the same life by the contribution which each part makes to the good of the whole [ Jn. 15: 1-13 ] There is, then, a life -giving intercommunication between Jesus [ Christ the Redeemer ] and His redeemed, and among the redeemed themselves.

 

[Eph4:26]

. . . As for Christ's birthday, who cares? We have it in December. Ain't no thang.

With respects to this topic . . .

The RCC officially maintains that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, while conveying a message that is the exact opposite.

Here's how it works, on December 25 every priest in the world from the time Christmas was first brought into the Church centuries after Christ Birth gets up in the pulpit and reads:

Luke 2:11
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Now tell me . . . . hasn't everyone that has ever heard Luke 2:11 quoted from the pews interprets 'today' to literal mean TODAY . . . . December 25?

I'm not ashamed to admit it, I did when I was young and couldn't wait until mass was over so I could go home and play with my christmas toys.

In addition, every Scriptural reference used by the RCC to support the tradition of Christmas is worthy of textural criticism.

 

[Albion]

With respects to this topic . . .

The RCC officially maintains that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, while conveying a message that is the exact opposite.

Let's clear this up without delay. ALMOST EVERY Christian Church, not just the RCC, observes the Nativity on December 25 while understanding that no one knows the exact date when Jesus was born.

Here's how it works, on December 25 every priest in the world from the time Christmas was first brought into the Church centuries after Christ Birth gets up in the pulpit and reads:

Luke 2:11
for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Now tell me . . . . hasn't everyone that has ever heard Luke 2:11 quoted from the pews interprets 'today' to literal mean TODAY . . . . December 25?

No, absolutely not. Those priests are reading, not editorializing. THEY ARE READING the text, quoting the proclamation made by the angel.

 

[Eph4:26]

Let's clear this up without delay. ALMOST EVERY Christian Church, not just the RCC, observes the Nativity on December 25 while understanding that no one knows the exact date when Jesus was born.

I would agree with this point now. Pre-internet days I do not believe the distinction was widely understood. Nor do I believe children fully comprehend the difference. If a class room of children were asked what day Jesus was born, would there be a single child able to provide the correct answer?

No, absolutely not. Those priests are reading (Luke 2:11), not editorializing. THEY ARE READING the text, quoting the proclamation made by the angel.

When I'm not participating within this forum, one of my other passions is studying Game Theory and Common Knowledge.

To generalize Priest (and Pastors) as just reading text would be missing a greater phenomena taking place that is not lost on their superiors.

 

[Albion]

I would agree with this point now. Pre-internet days I do not believe the distinction was widely understood. Nor do I believe children fully comprehend the difference. If a class room of children were asked what day Jesus was born, would there be a single child able to provide the correct answer?

And if we asked them what God looks like or how old he is, would they be able to answer like a theologian or historian? I don't think this approach (what children's imaginations suggest to them) helps us very much.

To generalize Priest (and Pastors) as just reading text would be missing a greater phenomena taking place that is not lost on their superiors.

It wasn't a generalization. When a pastor says those words it's because he's quoting Luke, not because he's telling the congregation to take it from him that December 25 was the day of Christ's birth. It is simply the day we observe as his natal day.

And as for "missing a greater phenomenon," I might agree if the whole of his sermon was nothing but a reading of the Gospel for the day and not one word spoken in elaboration of it.

I've never once had that experience.

 

[SMA12]

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a saint who has "pull" with him, huh?

It's amazing how some people feel that they need to humanize God in order to relate to him, even to the point of ascribing the worst in human nature to him!

This is a poor characature of what Catholics actually believe, and I think you know that

You know well that we pray directly to God as well (in fact much more often than the saints, honestly). But if I take your exact words and just replace one of them and make the same statement about your prayer life, I doubt you will think I am representing you fairly. Let's try:

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a loved one who has "pull" with him, huh?

Or

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a pastor who has "pull" with him, huh?

Or

So you don't feel that "Our Father" is unwilling to hear from us unless we recruit a fellow Christian who has "pull" with him, huh?

 

[SMA12]

Let's think about this:

If your issue is that their is only one mediator between the Father and man, then one should not ask the intercession of fellow Christians on earth. If you believe asking a loved to pray for you is okay, then your issue is not really the one mediator thing, but a communication with people in Heaven thing.

Can we all at least admit to that?

If so then I will ask you why you think its impossible to the saints alive in Heaven to intercede on your behalf. Are they oblivious to life on earth? Do they not care about their fellow members of the Body of Christ?




PS... please don't ask "even if that's so, well why not go straight to God?" unless you are also willing to claim the same rebuttal against someone who asks the intercession of a loved one. Be honest about your issue: is it a one mediator thing or a communication with people in Heaven thing?

 

[Targaryen]

If so then I will ask you why you think its impossible to the saints alive in Heaven to intercede on your behalf. Are they oblivious to life on earth? Do they not care about their fellow members of the Body of Christ?

Simple, no prophet taught intercession, Jesus didn't teach intercession, neither did the Apostles.

Do I think the saints not care, of course not. But that doesn't mean I think they have the power to do much, and if they do intercede, it's not because we pray to them. They would do it regardless I would say.

 

[SMA12]

Simple, no prophet taught intercession, Jesus didn't teach intercession, neither did the Apostles.

Do I think the saints not care, of course not. But that doesn't mean I think they have the power to do much, and if they do intercede, it's not because we pray to them. They would do it regardless I would say.

Okay, then I will ask you some follow ups.

1)Did Jesus or any of the prophets or Apostles teach us to pray for one another and/or ask others to pray for us?

A)If not, then why do you do so?

B)If so, then why does this not also apply to our fellow members of the Body
of Christ already in Heaven?

2) Also, why don't you think they have the power to do so? Are they not literally in Heaven with God? Does the book of Revelation not tell us they are in Heaven praying on our behalf?

 

[Targaryen]

Okay, then I will ask you some follow ups.

1)Did Jesus or any of the prophets or Apostles teach us to pray for one another and/or ask others to pray for us?

A)If not, then why do you do so?

B)If so, then why does this not also apply to our fellow members of the Body
of Christ already in Heaven?

2) Also, why don't you think they have the power to do so? Are they not literally in Heaven with God? Does the book of Revelation not tell us they are in Heaven praying on our behalf?

Pray for one another, yes. Otherwise, I don't know what Bible you are reading but it not the one I've been. But that was to us as living beings, as we are the most in thrall of the power of sin and all it's consequences.

So what about the Saints. It means that they have gone on to their reward. Unless you think the power of sin still has thrall in the kingdom of heaven? but the saints don't require prayer, they don't suffer now. and as for praying for us, again. If they are in the presence of God, what is to say that they aren't interceding for us regardless?

Revering the saints is different then praying to the saints. We should be looking at their examples not focusing on what they are likely doing in the Kingdom.

 

[bbbbbbb]

One of the difficulties with the doctrine of saintly intercession is that saints require divine attributes in order to perform their alleged role. They must be omnipresent because if they are not they are very much limited to hearing one individual prayer at one time in one place. They must be omnipotent in order to have the power to answer the prayer. They must also be omniscient in order to know everything about the individual who is saying the prayer and their actual spiritual condition.

In life or in death no saint is a demi-god and to teach so is grave error.

 

[Albion]

One of the difficulties with the doctrine of saintly intercession is that saints require divine attributes in order to perform their alleged role. They must be omnipresent because if they are not they are very much limited to hearing one individual prayer at one time in one place. They must be omnipotent in order to have the power to answer the prayer. They must also be omniscient in order to know everything about the individual who is saying the prayer and their actual spiritual condition.

In life or in death no saint is a demi-god and to teach so is grave error.

What's more, they have to be in Heaven! There is no way of knowing if most of the "saints" to whom prayers are addressed are actually in a position to hear these prayers, even if all the other difficulties with the concept that you pointed to were somehow resolved.

Having one denomination or other canonizing them certainly doesn't do it, and to cite how dubious this becomes, consider that one way that new saints get to be canonized in the RCC is for them to...wait for it...answer prayers directed to them! IOW, it's presumed that praying to just about anyone who has died is OK...in advance of even the church itself having concluded that they are able to receive such prayer. And in the Eastern churches and some Anglican churches it's done in other ways, none of which are as credible as the way that the RCC does it.

 

[concretecamper]

Simple, no prophet taught intercession, Jesus didn't teach intercession, neither did the Apostles.

Really? When Christ healed the paralytic who was lowered through a hole in the roof, what does the gospel say about what Christ thought?

 

[Targaryen]

Really? When Christ healed the paralytic who was lowered through a hole in the roof, what does the gospel say about what Christ thought?

The Gospel of Our Lord Jesus Christ, according to St.Mark:

1Several days later, Jesusa returned to Capernaum and it was reported that he was at home. 2Such a large crowd gathered that there wasn’t room for them, even in front of the door. Jesusb was speaking his message to them 3when some peoplec came and brought him a paralyzed man being carried by four men. 4Since they couldn’t bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof over the place where he was. They dug through it and let down the mat on which the paralyzed man was lying.
5When Jesus saw their faith, he told the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
6Now some scribes were sitting there, arguing among themselves,d 7“Why does this man talk this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”
8At once, Jesus knew in his spirit what they were saying to themselves. “Why are you arguing about such things among yourselves?”e he asked them. 9“Which is easier: to say to the paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Get up, pick up your mat, and walk’? 10But I want you to knowf that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” Then he told the paralyzed man, 11“I say to you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home!” 12So the mang got up, immediately picked up his mat, and went out in front of all of them.
As a result, all of the people were amazed and began to glorify God as they kept on saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

It refers to Jesus being the son of god, not that a saint is interceding in the paralytic's case, but that God directly is.

 

[concretecamper]

]When Jesus saw their faith, he told the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven

So, did Jesus forgive his sins and heal him because of the faith of the man's friends?